Discussion:
A Christian view of orcs
(too old to reply)
Steve Dufour
2003-08-25 13:53:08 UTC
Permalink
By Greg Wright from http://www.hollywoodjesus.com
Peter Jackson's Orcs
Tolkien, Racism and Classism
The peoples of Middle-Earth are, admittedly, very European. The people
of Gondor, and others of Numenorean descent, are fair-skinned and
grey-eyed. The north-men of Rohan are, not suprisingly, Nordic in
their fair-haired stature. And the Hobbits themselves, while a bit on
the furry side, are very, well... British. The Southrons on the other
hand -- those of Near and Far Harad -- are swarthy and even quite
dark-skinned, while the followers of Ghan-Buri-Ghan are presented as
aboriginal and men of uncertain descent are at times described as
sallow.

Does this make Tolkien racist? To be sure, the humanoids of
Middle-Earth tend to be what might be today called segregationist:
purity of bloodlines is of tremendous concern to these people, and at
the time of The War of the Ring, to be a Numenorian is a source of
great pride -- and to be anything else is to be, quite frankly,
something lesser. But Rohan's separatism, for only one example, is
based more on ignorance, fear and mistrust than it is on ideology. And
it's hardly surprising that Tolkien, in writing a mythology he could
dedicate "to England," would produce a fantastic world that rather
mirrored his own. The Lord of the Rings takes place in a northerly
clime, not an equatorial.

The stratification of Middle-Earth's social classes has also been
criticized. Kings are kings, and serfs are serfs -- and the twain
shall never meet. But again, to be English is to recognize and accept
the significance of bloodlines and lineage: to know your place in the
world, and to embrace it. At the same time, a worthy monarch of
Middle-Earth knows what it is to be truly noble, and that nobility
cannot be reduced to station alone. Even the lowliest may be worthy of
great honor through loyalty, faithfulness, courage and service -- thus
Aragorn and Eomer may confer status and position upon mere Hobbits,
that peculiar and unique "branch of the specifically human race."


And Just What the Heck Are Orcs?
But the real key to understanding Tolkien's feelings about race is to
address the issue of the Elves, and their counterparts -- the Orcs.
For here we see in Tolkien truly distinct races. The Dwarves are also
racially different from the human family; but Elves and Orcs are
actually related, the Orcs in dark ages past having been corruptly
bred from the nobility of Elvish stock by dark powers. Peter Jackson's
movies bring this legend into the foreground in Saruman's development
of a new breed of Orc, the "fighting Uruk-Hai," which he calls the
culmination of the ages-long process of corruption.

And here, of course, it would be pretty easy to bring up the charges
of racism again: the Elves themselves are racially stratified into
"High" and "Low" classes, with the High Elves at times snobbishly
preferential on the basis of dialect and hair color; and, of course,
the Elves are all fair-skinned, while the corrupt Orcs are all
dark-skinned.

But what are Orcs, exactly? Tolkien was at great pains to explain the
nature of Elves. Unlike humans, whose eternal spirit is housed in a
fallen, corrupt body, Elves are simultaneously immortal -- Galadriel,
for only one example, has lived several thousands of years by the time
of The War of the Ring -- yet bound to a physical fate. Though Elvish
spirits pass to the Halls of Mandos, this is but a temporary and
finite residence. At the remaking of Arda (the End Times of
Middle-Earth) the Elves face an unknown future while the spirits of
Men will dwell on with Eru forever.

As corrupted Elves, do Orcs share a similar fate? Are they long-lived
liked their nobler, purer kin? Those issues are never really addressed
by Tolkien. For what makes an Orc an Orc, as far as Tolkien is
concerned, is not the color of what passes for skin or even the nature
of what might be called the Orc's spirit -- it's what an Orc does, and
who an Orc serves.


The Orcs of Moria
Peter Jackson really does do a fine job of bringing the Orcs to the
screen. Unlike Rankin/Bass (who, in an apparent homage to the
classical origins of goblins, put wings on Tolkien's Orcs) and Ralph
Bakshi (whose Orcs resemble denizens of a Cecil B. DeMille leper
colony), Jackson does present a vision tolerably consistent with
Tolkien's. Thanks to prosthetic and digital technology, Jackson's Orcs
are anatomically dinstinct enough for us to see real connections
between the screen and Tolkien's narrative -- and there is yet room
for the various classes which exist even within the race of Orcs.

The Orcs of Moria, for instance, are the scuttling, clambering breed
which seems characteristic of the Misty Mountains, even the more
southerly vales. They are fair archers, and fight in swarming hordes
with the assistance of cave trolls. In Moria, they are dominated by
the fearsome presence of the Balrog and flee at his coming -- and to
the extent that the Balrog is in league with Sauron, they also serve
the Dark Lord. And while they are a loathsome menace, perhaps best
visualized as they clamber down from the shadows upon the Fellowship
in the halls of Dwarrowdelf, their abilities are limited. They are
deathly afraid of sunlight, and will even cower and die under its
influence. So it is that they do not pursue the Fellowship as it
issues from Moria, and Aragorn must remind Boromir that by nightfall
Kheled-Zaram will be swarming with Orcs.


Grishnakh and the Orcs of the Field
It's a pity, really, that Jackson can't devote more screen time in The
Two Towers to the party of Orcs which takes Merry and Pippin captive
and lugs them across Rohan toward Isengard. The stripped-down version
of the story doesn't allow many questions to be answered. Why are
there two breeds of Orcs among the party: Grishnakh and his fellows,
and the Uruk-Hai? Why are they in the open country on the west side of
Anduin in the first place? Why do they then trek through the unsafe
enemy territory of Rohan, instead of heading for the relative safety
of the east bank of Anduin toward Mordor?

The answers are really in service to Jackson's fundamental conception
of Saruman as a pragmatically hopeless, duped vassal of Sauron rather
than the duplicitous aspirant to power which Tolkien conceives. So
there is little clue in Jackson's movies that Grishnakh and company
are Orcs of Mordor temporarily and bregrudingly in league with
Saruman's Uruk-Hai, browbeaten into taking the westerly course. In
Tolkien, a contingent of the Mordor Orcs even breaks off from the main
party to beat a return to the east; but they are forced back by the
Riders of Rohan.

Grishnakh and the others of the Mordor breed are more affected by the
sunlight than are the Uruk-Hai. While not as sun-intolerant as the
Orcs of Moria, they are still dependent on their own vile brew for
sustenance -- and are wholly at the mercy of fear and the will of
their master to drive them on.


The Uruk-Hai
Saruman's Orcs have had all such infirmity bred out of them. They
don't scuttle, like the Orcs of Moria, and they don't equivocate or
quarrel amongst themselves, like the Orcs of Mordor. They are
impervious to the effects of the sun, and they equal or excel in
stature the Elves themselves and their human allies. They are lean,
mean fighting machines, and they have but one purpose -- to serve the
will of Saruman.

Whether in Tolkien or in Jackson -- but perhaps most clear in
Jackson's movies -- this gets us into the territory of defining what
it is that really makes an Orc orc-ish: misplaced allegiance. In the
first place, Orcs are mistakenly driven by fear. For Tolkien, a
Christian, this is inimical to a sound understanding of one's purpose
in the universe: a motivation toward praise and worship of the creator
through love, which "casts out fear." Second, Orcs mistakenly revere
the creation rather than the Creator. Whether it's Saruman, Sauron,
the Balrog or their own Orc chieftans, all are the creation of Eru.
And all Middle-Earth ultimately falls under the sway of its Creator;
neither demons nor wayward wizards can supplant the intended majesty
of Eru.

The Effects of Idolatry
And really, this discussion of Orcs should scuttle charges of racism
or classism in Tolkien. Why? Because as far as Tolkien was concerned,
Orcs were merely a fictionalization of a contemporary reality. He
transformed his war experiences, for instance -- the visceral struggle
between good and evil -- into "another form and symbol with Morgoth
and Orcs" pitted against the Elves. Further, in a war-time letter to
his son Christopher, Tolkien called the Orcs "as real a creation as
anything in 'realistic' fiction." For Tolkien, it was easy to see that
adapting the means of the enemy to defeat the enemy -- "attempting to
conquer Sauron with the Ring," if you will -- bears, of necessity,
evil fruit: "The penalty is, as you will know, to breed new Saurons,
and slowly turn Men and Elves into Orcs." And their fate? Tolkien
conceded the possibility that Orcs, like some human residents of our
own world, might be "unredeemable" -- yet insisted that, in
Middle-Earth, mercy should be shown to Orcs "even at cost," a moral
vision distinctly lacking in Jackson's The Two Towers.

And so even among men of our own time we can see behavior worthy of
Orcs: a prime motive of fear instead of love, and an esteem of
creation elevated above devotion to the Creator. The net effect is
division among men where God intended unity -- the root of all racism
and classism. A house divided against itself cannot stand, as Jesus
observed. One cannot serve two masters.

And so Tolkien's Orcs really bring home the issue to us, personally.
If we examine our own behavior, what do we find? Love, and devotion to
God? Or fear, and perhaps devotion to self? Are we men as we were
intended to be, or have we ourselves become Orcs?
Hasdrubal Hamilcar
2003-08-26 04:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Nice review. I wonder if they "fade" in the manner
of Tolkien's invented subcreation theology. (I never
really understood why the hell he created a race that
is incapable of surviving in its planet of birth.
What, are they too pure for the ME or something?
Seems like a justification for the wrong kind of
attitude towards Christian virtue to me. I.e. viewing
the Kingdom of Heaven as an unattainable antediluvian
state, and viewing the New Testament virtues not as
prescriptions but as preparation for the apocalypse,
when God will come down and make everything right
without any need on the part of "Elves" or virtuous
humans to stick around and do the right thing.)
Christian theology might have something to say about gog and Magog.
They are said to be so numerous, that their bodies will fill the earth
when they attack Jesus and Israel. The Quran says they will swarm from
every high place (mountain).

Maybe the orcs are as irredeemable as the Gog and Magog are. Or at
least--the prophecies are as mute on the relative morality of making an
army evil qua evil. So perhaps Tolkien didn't know what would redeem
them--in either case. So he left it in there in the simplest possible
manner, to make them obviously evil with no redeemable outward feature,
leaving the rest an open question.


What else is there to say about Gog and Magog from the Torah/bible?

Hasan
Conrad Dunkerson
2003-08-26 11:36:45 UTC
Permalink
I wonder if they "fade" in the manner of Tolkien's invented subcreation
theology. (I never really understood why the hell he created a race
that is incapable of surviving in its planet of birth.
Actually, my understanding has been that the tendency of elven bodies
to 'fade' was due to the 'Marring of Arda' by Melkor. In the intended
design their physical forms would have remained with them in ME... as
they apparently did in Aman.
Robert J. Kolker
2003-08-26 20:28:45 UTC
Permalink
Rank hypocrisy on the Hankster's part. Either Tolkien is as much a lost
soul as the Catholics are, or devout Catholics are as saved as he was.
There may be some griping about the Bishop of Rome among Protestants,
but Catholics are as saved as any baptized Christian. Catholics -are-
baptized Christians.

Bob Kolker
Ash Wyrd
2003-08-27 02:18:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert J. Kolker
Rank hypocrisy on the Hankster's part. Either Tolkien is as much a lost
soul as the Catholics are, or devout Catholics are as saved as he was.
There may be some griping about the Bishop of Rome among Protestants,
but Catholics are as saved as any baptized Christian. Catholics -are-
baptized Christians.
Bob Kolker
Just to be pedantic, Catholics are not baptized, but merely sprinkled.... I
won't say that the symbolism isn't just as strong, nor that its not just as
much an obedience to the call of Yahweh in their hearts... but I don't
really see how that can be called baptism
wrob
2003-08-27 03:07:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash Wyrd
Just to be pedantic, Catholics are not baptized, but merely sprinkled.... I
won't say that the symbolism isn't just as strong, nor that its not just as
much an obedience to the call of Yahweh in their hearts... but I don't
really see how that can be called baptism
If you don't call it baptism then by theological definition they are either
anabaptists or heathens. Sounds to me like some people have some hangups
about someone else's religious belief about how to attain salvation...
oh well. I happen to agree with Pope Origen on this matter. -Ber
Ash Wyrd
2003-08-27 07:56:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by wrob
Post by Ash Wyrd
Just to be pedantic, Catholics are not baptized, but merely
sprinkled.... I
Post by wrob
Post by Ash Wyrd
won't say that the symbolism isn't just as strong, nor that its not just as
much an obedience to the call of Yahweh in their hearts... but I don't
really see how that can be called baptism
If you don't call it baptism then by theological definition they are either
anabaptists or heathens. Sounds to me like some people have some hangups
about someone else's religious belief about how to attain salvation...
oh well. I happen to agree with Pope Origen on this matter. -Ber
Salvation (according to the Christian belief system) comes from accepting
christ (the son)... Baptism with water is a symbol of obedience mainly to
Yahweh (the father)... and the ritual of the pentacaust is most often
connected to Elohiem (the spirit(s)).... I don't particularly prescribe to
any particular dogma, but I respect the dogma that others prescribe to.

Now, have you accepted Pan? :-)
Steve Hayes
2003-08-27 09:41:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash Wyrd
Post by wrob
Post by Ash Wyrd
Just to be pedantic, Catholics are not baptized, but merely
sprinkled.... I
Post by wrob
Post by Ash Wyrd
won't say that the symbolism isn't just as strong, nor that its not just
as
Post by wrob
Post by Ash Wyrd
much an obedience to the call of Yahweh in their hearts... but I don't
really see how that can be called baptism
If you don't call it baptism then by theological definition they are
either
Post by wrob
anabaptists or heathens. Sounds to me like some people have some hangups
about someone else's religious belief about how to attain salvation...
oh well. I happen to agree with Pope Origen on this matter. -Ber
Salvation (according to the Christian belief system) comes from accepting
christ (the son)... Baptism with water is a symbol of obedience mainly to
Yahweh (the father)... and the ritual of the pentacaust is most often
connected to Elohiem (the spirit(s)).... I don't particularly prescribe to
any particular dogma, but I respect the dogma that others prescribe to.
Your knowledge of Christian theology seems to be as unreliable as your
knowledge of the English language.

Get a dictionary, and look up "prescribe" and "subscribe", for a start.

A good place to go after that might be "baptism".
--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: ***@yahoo.com
Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm
Ash Wyrd
2003-08-27 12:09:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Your knowledge of Christian theology seems to be as unreliable as your
knowledge of the English language.
Get a dictionary, and look up "prescribe"
"to claim a title to something" is one of the definitions of "prescribe" and
the one I was using.
Post by Steve Hayes
and "subscribe", for a start.
which of these definitions are you referring to? Neither of them seems to
have any bearing on what my intent was.

Pronunciation: s&b-'skrIb
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): sub·scribed; sub·scrib·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin subscribere, literally, to write
beneath, from sub- + scribere to write -- more at SCRIBE
Date: 15th century
transitive senses
1 : to write (one's name) underneath : SIGN
2 a : to sign (as a document) with one's own hand in token of consent or
obligation b : to attest by signing c : to pledge (a gift or contribution)
by writing one's name with the amount
3 : to assent to : SUPPORT
intransitive senses
1 : to sign one's name to a document
2 a : to give consent or approval to something written by signing <unwilling
to subscribe to the agreement> b : to set one's name to a paper in token of
promise to give something (as a sum of money); also : to give something in
accordance with such a promise c : to enter one's name for a publication or
service; also : to receive a periodical or service regularly on order d : to
agree to purchase and pay for securities especially of a new offering
<subscribed for 1000 shares>
3 : to feel favorably disposed <I subscribe to your sentiments>
synonym see ASSENT
- sub·scrib·er noun
Post by Steve Hayes
A good place to go after that might be "baptism".
Ok this one has changed over time, and it seems there is disagreement from
whence the word had originated. One dictionary sais it comes from a the
greek "Batos" which is literally translated as "drown by submersion" another
from the Middle English "baptis" which does not seem to indicate
submergence, but rather cleansing.... My understanding, buth scriptural, and
linguistic, leans closer to the Greek origin
Steve Hayes
2003-08-28 04:43:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash Wyrd
Post by Steve Hayes
Your knowledge of Christian theology seems to be as unreliable as your
knowledge of the English language.
Get a dictionary, and look up "prescribe"
"to claim a title to something" is one of the definitions of "prescribe" and
the one I was using.
To prescribe something to someone is to tell them what to do beforehand.
Post by Ash Wyrd
Post by Steve Hayes
and "subscribe", for a start.
which of these definitions are you referring to? Neither of them seems to
have any bearing on what my intent was.
Pronunciation: s&b-'skrIb
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): sub·scribed; sub·scrib·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin subscribere, literally, to write
beneath, from sub- + scribere to write -- more at SCRIBE
Date: 15th century
transitive senses
1 : to write (one's name) underneath : SIGN
2 a : to sign (as a document) with one's own hand in token of consent or
obligation b : to attest by signing c : to pledge (a gift or contribution)
by writing one's name with the amount
3 : to assent to : SUPPORT
intransitive senses
1 : to sign one's name to a document
2 a : to give consent or approval to something written by signing <unwilling
to subscribe to the agreement> b : to set one's name to a paper in token of
promise to give something (as a sum of money); also : to give something in
accordance with such a promise c : to enter one's name for a publication or
service; also : to receive a periodical or service regularly on order d : to
agree to purchase and pay for securities especially of a new offering
<subscribed for 1000 shares>
3 : to feel favorably disposed <I subscribe to your sentiments>
synonym see ASSENT
- sub·scrib·er noun
Post by Steve Hayes
A good place to go after that might be "baptism".
Ok this one has changed over time, and it seems there is disagreement from
whence the word had originated. One dictionary sais it comes from a the
greek "Batos" which is literally translated as "drown by submersion" another
from the Middle English "baptis" which does not seem to indicate
submergence, but rather cleansing.... My understanding, buth scriptural, and
linguistic, leans closer to the Greek origin
In
--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: ***@yahoo.com
Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm
Alan Wostenberg
2003-09-03 13:14:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash Wyrd
Post by Steve Hayes
A good place to go after that might be "baptism".
Ok this one has changed over time, and it seems there is disagreement from
whence the word had originated. One dictionary sais it comes from a the
greek "Batos" which is literally translated as "drown by submersion" another
from the Middle English "baptis" which does not seem to indicate
submergence, but rather cleansing.... My understanding, buth scriptural, and
linguistic, leans closer to the Greek origin
Ash it's s good to remember the image of baptism as "drowning" because
it is a form of death -- death to sin. Flannery O'Connor wrote a classic
story _the violent bear it away_ exaggerating this imagry which you
might enjoy. We forget that baptism is not an outward sign of an inner
conversion. It's a sacrament that effects what it signifies.

-- Alan Wostenberg
got psalms? http://www.psalmweaver.com
the softrat
2003-08-27 19:21:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Ash Wyrd
Post by wrob
Post by Ash Wyrd
Just to be pedantic, Catholics are not baptized, but merely
sprinkled.... I
Post by wrob
Post by Ash Wyrd
won't say that the symbolism isn't just as strong, nor that its not just
as
Post by wrob
Post by Ash Wyrd
much an obedience to the call of Yahweh in their hearts... but I don't
really see how that can be called baptism
If you don't call it baptism then by theological definition they are
either
Post by wrob
anabaptists or heathens. Sounds to me like some people have some hangups
about someone else's religious belief about how to attain salvation...
oh well. I happen to agree with Pope Origen on this matter. -Ber
Salvation (according to the Christian belief system) comes from accepting
christ (the son)... Baptism with water is a symbol of obedience mainly to
Yahweh (the father)... and the ritual of the pentacaust is most often
connected to Elohiem (the spirit(s)).... I don't particularly prescribe to
any particular dogma, but I respect the dogma that others prescribe to.
Your knowledge of Christian theology seems to be as unreliable as your
knowledge of the English language.
Get a dictionary, and look up "prescribe" and "subscribe", for a start.
A good place to go after that might be "baptism".
While you're at it, check into the spelling of 'Pentecost'.

What we have here is an ignorant, illiterate troll who pretends to be
human.



the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
Mr Bullfrog says, "Time's fun, when you're having flies!"
Viet Vet from Hell
2003-08-27 19:36:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Your knowledge of Christian theology seems to be as unreliable as your
knowledge of the English language.
he didnt want to write in english but he had to bwcause we do
ha ha ha loser with a useless mothre tongue

the vet (straight to the top)
AC
2003-08-27 14:48:37 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 02:56:50 -0500,
Post by Ash Wyrd
Post by wrob
Post by Ash Wyrd
Just to be pedantic, Catholics are not baptized, but merely
sprinkled.... I
Post by wrob
Post by Ash Wyrd
won't say that the symbolism isn't just as strong, nor that its not just
as
Post by wrob
Post by Ash Wyrd
much an obedience to the call of Yahweh in their hearts... but I don't
really see how that can be called baptism
If you don't call it baptism then by theological definition they are
either
Post by wrob
anabaptists or heathens. Sounds to me like some people have some hangups
about someone else's religious belief about how to attain salvation...
oh well. I happen to agree with Pope Origen on this matter. -Ber
Salvation (according to the Christian belief system) comes from accepting
christ (the son)... Baptism with water is a symbol of obedience mainly to
Yahweh (the father)... and the ritual of the pentacaust is most often
connected to Elohiem (the spirit(s)).... I don't particularly prescribe to
any particular dogma, but I respect the dogma that others prescribe to.
Now, have you accepted Pan? :-)
I asked my wife (who is a Catholic) whether she was baptized, and she said
yes. I asked her if her style of baptism made her less obedient to God.
She laughed and thought your assumptions were ignorant.

Now that that's settled...
--
Aaron Clausen

***@alberni.net
Flame of the West
2003-09-01 13:02:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by wrob
Post by Ash Wyrd
Just to be pedantic, Catholics are not baptized, but merely sprinkled.... I
won't say that the symbolism isn't just as strong, nor that its not just as
much an obedience to the call of Yahweh in their hearts... but I don't
really see how that can be called baptism
If you don't call it baptism then by theological definition they are either
anabaptists or heathens. Sounds to me like some people have some hangups
about someone else's religious belief about how to attain salvation...
oh well. I happen to agree with Pope Origen on this matter. -Ber
"Pope" Origen? Perhaps my list is incomplete...

-- FotW

Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
the softrat
2003-09-01 23:41:27 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 09:02:33 -0400, Flame of the West
Post by Flame of the West
Post by wrob
If you don't call it baptism then by theological definition they are either
anabaptists or heathens. Sounds to me like some people have some hangups
about someone else's religious belief about how to attain salvation...
oh well. I happen to agree with Pope Origen on this matter. -Ber
"Pope" Origen? Perhaps my list is incomplete...
Elected recently in conclave by the College of 'wrob'.

The smoke was yellow.


the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
"I get to go to lots of overseas places, like Canada." --
Britney Spears
AC
2003-08-27 03:08:25 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:18:36 -0500,
Post by Ash Wyrd
Post by Robert J. Kolker
Rank hypocrisy on the Hankster's part. Either Tolkien is as much a lost
soul as the Catholics are, or devout Catholics are as saved as he was.
There may be some griping about the Bishop of Rome among Protestants,
but Catholics are as saved as any baptized Christian. Catholics -are-
baptized Christians.
Bob Kolker
Just to be pedantic, Catholics are not baptized, but merely sprinkled.... I
won't say that the symbolism isn't just as strong, nor that its not just as
much an obedience to the call of Yahweh in their hearts... but I don't
really see how that can be called baptism
You're not being pedantic, your just displaying ignorance and religious
bigotry.
--
Aaron Clausen

***@alberni.net
James R. Black
2003-08-27 03:43:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash Wyrd
Just to be pedantic, Catholics are not baptized, but merely sprinkled....
No, no, no. Catholic tradition allows sprinkling
only in exceptional circumstances; in fact, in the
U.S. one of the arguments against acceptance of
Protestant baptism in the 19th century was that
some Protestants used sprinkling in such a way as
to render their baptisms of doubtful validity.
The usual Catholic practice is either immersion
or pouring, with immersion the preferable choice.
Here are some quotes from the official 1983 edition
of the "Rites of the Catholic Church":

------------------------------------------------------

Either the rite of immersion, which is more suitable
as a symbol of participation in the death and
resurrection of Christ, or the rite of infusion may
be used in the celebration of baptism.

------------------------------------------------------

If baptism is by immersion of the whole body or of
the head only ... the celebrant immerses him or his
head three times, raising him out of the water each
time and baptizing him by using the name of the
Trinity only once:

N., I baptize you in the name of the Father

he immerses him the first time,

and of the Son,

he immerses him the second time,

and of the Holy Spirit.

he immerses him the third time.

------------------------------------------------------

If baptism is done by infusion or pouring, the
celebrant takes baptismal water from the font
and pours it three times on the bowed head of
the candidate, baptizing him in the name of the
Trinity:

N., I baptize you in the name of the Father

he pours water a first time,

and of the Son,

he pours water a second time,

and of the Holy Spirit.

he pours water a third time.

------------------------------------------------------

As far as I can find, there is nothing anywhere in
the official Rites which even mentions "sprinkling",
nor have I ever seen it done at any of the Catholic
baptisms I've attended.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
James R. Black ***@jvlnet.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Michelle J. Haines
2003-08-28 14:55:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by James R. Black
As far as I can find, there is nothing anywhere in
the official Rites which even mentions "sprinkling",
nor have I ever seen it done at any of the Catholic
baptisms I've attended.
The priest walks around spritzing people during certain special
Masses, but it's usually in REMEMBERANCE of baptism.

I went through Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults, and had water
poured on my head.

I've had three of my children baptized (Theona's baptism hasn't
occurred yet), and they all had water poured over their heads.

Some places have RCIA and RCIC (children around First Communion age)
sit in a tub and have water poured over them. Some have babies
stripped and sit in a basin. I don't think I've seen an RCC
immersion baptism personally, but I think it usually has to do with
space considerations, not with theological ones.

Michelle
Flutist
--
In my heart. By my side.
Never apart. AP with Pride!
Katrina Marie (10/19/96)
Xander Ryan (09/22/98 - 02/23/99)
Gareth Xander (07/17/00) Zachary Mitchell
Theona Alexis (06/03/03) (01/12/94, fostered 09/05/01 - 07/23/03)
Robert J. Kolker
2003-08-28 15:43:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michelle J. Haines
Some places have RCIA and RCIC (children around First Communion age)
sit in a tub and have water poured over them. Some have babies
stripped and sit in a basin.
What if the baby piddles or dumps in the Holy Water. Does it remain Holy?

When Christ (true Man and true God) took a dump, did his fewmets have
little haloes around them?

Bob Kolker
Pradera
2003-08-27 09:55:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash Wyrd
Post by Robert J. Kolker
There may be some griping about the Bishop of Rome among Protestants,
but Catholics are as saved as any baptized Christian. Catholics -are-
baptized Christians.
Bob Kolker
Just to be pedantic, Catholics are not baptized, but merely
sprinkled.... I won't say that the symbolism isn't just as strong, nor
that its not just as much an obedience to the call of Yahweh in their
hearts... but I don't really see how that can be called baptism
If Catholics practicized full immersion, it would result in massive
drownings of infants...

PK Dick baptized his son in cococa, and gave him holy communion of a hot-
dog, and seemed to believe it worked.
--
Pradera
---
I'm going hunting.
I'm a hunter.

http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/earthdawn
http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/
http://www.tolkien-gen.prv.pl/
Michael Sullivan
2003-08-31 20:10:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash Wyrd
Post by Robert J. Kolker
Rank hypocrisy on the Hankster's part. Either Tolkien is as much a lost
soul as the Catholics are, or devout Catholics are as saved as he was.
There may be some griping about the Bishop of Rome among Protestants,
but Catholics are as saved as any baptized Christian. Catholics -are-
baptized Christians.
Bob Kolker
Just to be pedantic, Catholics are not baptized, but merely sprinkled....
Someone who considers catholics to be unbaptized is not merely a
protestant, but a Baptist (or some other related denominations/sects).
I think it's safe to say that most protestants (even most evangelicals)
consider Catholics to be christians (to the extent that a member of any
other denomination is assumed to be christian -- we obviously do not
know what is in a person's heart).


Michael
Ash Wyrd
2003-08-31 20:17:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Sullivan
Someone who considers catholics to be unbaptized is not merely a
protestant, but a Baptist (or some other related denominations/sects).
I think it's safe to say that most protestants (even most evangelicals)
consider Catholics to be christians (to the extent that a member of any
other denomination is assumed to be christian -- we obviously do not
know what is in a person's heart).
Being the one who brought this issue up.... yes I agree that Catholics are
Christian, I was merely being pedantic, because that is the way my mind
functions (and because it's fun) as for a Christian sect I most agree with
would have to be closer to Pentecostal, though that is going a bit too far
into dogma (-:
Jason Atkinson
2003-08-27 14:01:21 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:28:45 GMT, "Robert J. Kolker"
Post by Robert J. Kolker
Rank hypocrisy on the Hankster's part. Either Tolkien is as much a lost
soul as the Catholics are, or devout Catholics are as saved as he was.
There may be some griping about the Bishop of Rome among Protestants,
but Catholics are as saved as any baptized Christian. Catholics -are-
baptized Christians.
Dunking someone in water is an important symbol but it doesn't "save"
anyone.
---

"Oh, really?," replied the dragon. "You must forgive me for not knowing anything about
you, but I've been out of touch. I am Mistinarperadnacles Hai Draco. You may call me
Mist. And I'll call you . . . . supper? Yes, its about time for a light, early supper.
So nice of you to deliver yourself." From _Azure Bonds_ by Kate Novak & Jeff Grubb
Pradera
2003-08-27 15:22:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jason Atkinson
Post by Robert J. Kolker
Rank hypocrisy on the Hankster's part. Either Tolkien is as much a lost
soul as the Catholics are, or devout Catholics are as saved as he was.
There may be some griping about the Bishop of Rome among Protestants,
but Catholics are as saved as any baptized Christian. Catholics -are-
baptized Christians.
Dunking someone in water is an important symbol but it doesn't "save"
anyone.
It's as good a try as any...
--
Pradera
---
I'm going hunting.
I'm a hunter.

http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/earthdawn
http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/
http://www.tolkien-gen.prv.pl/
Yuk Tang
2003-08-27 16:48:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jason Atkinson
Dunking someone in water is an important symbol but it doesn't
"save" anyone.
Depends on whether or not that person was on fire.
--
Cheers, ymt.
Terry
2003-08-27 17:07:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jason Atkinson
On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:28:45 GMT, "Robert J. Kolker"
Post by Robert J. Kolker
Rank hypocrisy on the Hankster's part. Either Tolkien is as much a lost
soul as the Catholics are, or devout Catholics are as saved as he was.
There may be some griping about the Bishop of Rome among Protestants,
but Catholics are as saved as any baptized Christian. Catholics -are-
baptized Christians.
Dunking someone in water is an important symbol but it doesn't "save"
anyone.
---
What ever they might say about the action's holy value, if you
baptise in a river be sure and point the celbrant's head upstream
otherwise water goes up the nose ...

:P
the softrat
2003-08-28 00:49:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jason Atkinson
Dunking someone in water is an important symbol but it doesn't "save"
anyone.
"God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during
the building of the Ark, in which a few ... were
saved through water. And baptism, which this
prefigured, now saves you ..." [1 Peter 3:20-21]
Now there: St. Peter doesn't say anything about 'dipping' someone, now
does he? Through water as a symbol of life and cleanliness, yes;
through total immersion, no.


the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
Frogs are my favorite vegetable.
James R. Black
2003-08-28 02:37:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by the softrat
Post by Jason Atkinson
Dunking someone in water is an important symbol but it doesn't "save"
anyone.
"God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during
the building of the Ark, in which a few ... were
saved through water. And baptism, which this
prefigured, now saves you ..." [1 Peter 3:20-21]
St. Peter doesn't say anything about 'dipping' someone,
That's exactly what he says. The word he uses is
Greek "baptisma", which is an alternate form of
"baptismos". The Liddell-Scott dictionary defines
the latter as "a dipping in water".
Post by the softrat
Through water as a symbol of life and cleanliness, yes;
through total immersion, no.
Immersion, infusion, whatever. The point is that
St. Peter explicitly says that "baptism saves you".
Quote unquote. And baptism is most fundamentally
"dunking someone in water" while reciting over them
the Trinitarian formula from Matthew 28:19 with the
intention of doing as Jesus commanded.

Sure, you can always weasel out of it by deciding
that it's all "symbolic" and doesn't mean what it
says. The gnostics weaseled out of the entire
Bible that way. But the most natural reading of
the text, and the one that fits most easily with
other New Testament passages and the practice of
the early Church, is that baptism does indeed save
those to whom it is properly administered.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
James R. Black ***@jvlnet.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
the softrat
2003-08-28 04:42:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by James R. Black
Post by the softrat
Post by Jason Atkinson
Dunking someone in water is an important symbol but it doesn't "save"
anyone.
"God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during
the building of the Ark, in which a few ... were
saved through water. And baptism, which this
prefigured, now saves you ..." [1 Peter 3:20-21]
St. Peter doesn't say anything about 'dipping' someone,
That's exactly what he says. The word he uses is
Greek "baptisma", which is an alternate form of
"baptismos". The Liddell-Scott dictionary defines
the latter as "a dipping in water".
Liddell was a *clergyman*, C of E! What do you expect?


the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
Communism is man's exploitation of man. Capitalism is just the
opposite.
Terry
2003-08-28 12:44:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by James R. Black
Post by the softrat
Post by Jason Atkinson
Dunking someone in water is an important symbol but it doesn't "save"
anyone.
"God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during
the building of the Ark, in which a few ... were
saved through water. And baptism, which this
prefigured, now saves you ..." [1 Peter 3:20-21]
St. Peter doesn't say anything about 'dipping' someone,
That's exactly what he says. The word he uses is
Greek "baptisma", which is an alternate form of
"baptismos". The Liddell-Scott dictionary defines
the latter as "a dipping in water".
Post by the softrat
Through water as a symbol of life and cleanliness, yes;
through total immersion, no.
Immersion, infusion, whatever. The point is that
St. Peter explicitly says that "baptism saves you".
Quote unquote. And baptism is most fundamentally
"dunking someone in water" while reciting over them
the Trinitarian formula from Matthew 28:19 with the
intention of doing as Jesus commanded.
Sure, you can always weasel out of it by deciding
that it's all "symbolic" and doesn't mean what it
says. The gnostics weaseled out of the entire
Bible that way. But the most natural reading of
the text, and the one that fits most easily with
other New Testament passages and the practice of
the early Church, is that baptism does indeed save
those to whom it is properly administered.
Post by the softrat
Post by Jason Atkinson
Dunking someone in water is an important symbol but it doesn't "save"
anyone.
"God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during
the building of the Ark, in which a few ... were
saved through water. And baptism, which this
prefigured, now saves you ..." [1 Peter 3:20-21]
St. Peter doesn't say anything about 'dipping' someone,
That's exactly what he says. The word he uses is
Greek "baptisma", which is an alternate form of
"baptismos". The Liddell-Scott dictionary defines
the latter as "a dipping in water".
Post by the softrat
Through water as a symbol of life and cleanliness, yes;
through total immersion, no.
Immersion, infusion, whatever. The point is that
St. Peter explicitly says that "baptism saves you".
Quote unquote. And baptism is most fundamentally
"dunking someone in water" while reciting over them
the Trinitarian formula from Matthew 28:19 with the
intention of doing as Jesus commanded.
Sure, you can always weasel out of it by deciding
that it's all "symbolic" and doesn't mean what it
says. The gnostics weaseled out of the entire
Bible that way. But the most natural reading of
the text, and the one that fits most easily with
other New Testament passages and the practice of
the early Church, is that baptism does indeed save
those to whom it is properly administered.
Do you mean that literally, that baptism properly administered (by
immersion, I take it) is what saves people?

What then of a person who goes participates in a perfectly executed
ritual of baptism but who does not repent of their pre baptism life
and has no interest in building a new life as a Christian? Such as in
the mass baptisms of dark ages fame. The king orders his people to be
baptized and the people follow the king's instructions, but the people
do not understand the ritual.

It seems to that baptism might not be a sufficient condition for
salvation. It seems that something internal to the celebrant might be
required. A change of heart.

OTH, baptism might not be a necessary condition for salvation. There
is the question of the fate of otherwise good people who have not
participated in the Christian religion. Most of the world do not
participate in the Christian religion.

"It is possible . . . to envisage a [person] who is in possession of
that self-imparting of God called grace as the innermost heart and
center of [that person's] existence, one who has accepted this in
unreserved faithfulness to [one's] conscience, one who is thereby
constituted as a believer in a form which, while it is not objectified
in words is nonetheless real. . . . I cannot see why we should not
call such a [person] an anonymous Christian".

-- Karl Rahner, "Observation on the Problem of the 'Anonymous
Christian,'" Theological Investigations, XIV (New York: Seabury Press,
1976), 290.
Jason Atkinson
2003-08-28 20:12:43 UTC
Permalink
My point is not that baptism can save by itself; in
adults it must be conjoined with repentance,
I'd say that repentence and faith is what saves and baptism ceromony
that God expects you to perform when possible as an outward expression
of an internal spiritual change. We may not be in as much of a
disagreement as you first thought.



---

"Oh, really?," replied the dragon. "You must forgive me for not knowing anything about
you, but I've been out of touch. I am Mistinarperadnacles Hai Draco. You may call me
Mist. And I'll call you . . . . supper? Yes, its about time for a light, early supper.
So nice of you to deliver yourself." From _Azure Bonds_ by Kate Novak & Jeff Grubb
James R. Black
2003-08-29 00:45:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jason Atkinson
My point is not that baptism can save by itself; in
adults it must be conjoined with repentance,
I'd say that repentence and faith is what saves and baptism ceromony
that God expects you to perform when possible as an outward expression
of an internal spiritual change. We may not be in as much of a
disagreement as you first thought.
I think the real difference between us is not on
the particulars of baptism per se, but on the
issue of sacramental theology. You come from a
radical Reformation tradition which says that
sacraments are just "ceremonies" or "ordinances"
which don't actually do anything. I am coming
from a pre-Reformation tradition (Catholicism)
which says that sacraments are much more than
just empty symbols; they are potent acts of God
which "contain the grace they signify and bestow
it on those who do not hinder it."

Everything else is just details.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
James R. Black ***@jvlnet.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Terry
2003-08-30 01:05:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry
Post by James R. Black
Immersion, infusion, whatever. The point is that
St. Peter explicitly says that "baptism saves you".
Quote unquote. And baptism is most fundamentally
"dunking someone in water" while reciting over them
the Trinitarian formula from Matthew 28:19 with the
intention of doing as Jesus commanded.
Sure, you can always weasel out of it by deciding
that it's all "symbolic" and doesn't mean what it
says. The gnostics weaseled out of the entire
Bible that way. But the most natural reading of
the text, and the one that fits most easily with
other New Testament passages and the practice of
the early Church, is that baptism does indeed save
those to whom it is properly administered.
Do you mean that literally, that baptism properly administered (by
immersion, I take it) is what saves people?
Immersion is not necessary (pouring works just as
well). And intention is a part of "proper admini-
stration". A baptism performed in a TV show or a
play, for example, is not a proper baptism because
there is no actual intent to conduct a Christian
baptism in reality.
My point is not that baptism can save by itself; in
adults it must be conjoined with repentance, and
those baptized as infants must still come to faith
in adulthood. What I object to is the idea that
baptism is just an empty symbol which doesn't
actually "do" anything--that for all practical
purposes it has no more significance than taking
a shower. I think it's clear from the New Testament
that Peter and Paul would have been horrified at such
a cavaliar dismissal of what to them was a sacrament
instituted by Christ and *effective* for salvation.
We can argue about the exact terms of what that means,
and what preconditions are required. (Peter was, after
all, writing to believers, not pagans; it is thought
by some scholars that 1 Peter is in fact a transcript
of a baptismal sermon). We can fret over the details
of whether an unfulfilled desire for baptism suffices,
or what happens if someone is baptized without proper
faith and then comes to faith later. The point is
that the New Testament is emphatic that baptism in
fact *does* something important in the lives of those
who receive it. When Peter says, "baptism now saves
you", he wasn't just blowing hot air. He meant it.
We may feel that circumcision or baptism has more significance than
taking a shower, and that the Eucharist is something more than food
digested normally, but I suppose non Christians feel the same about
their own symbols, sacraments, or fetishes. And people speak
similarly of abstractions such as marriage, money, title, or
citizenship. Would you suppose that your marriage ceremony did
nothing? It is hard to see what it did other than change your status
before the law and in the feelings of the community, both of which are
more the product of convention than anything else. And what about a
ceremony of naturalization or the money in your bank account. Are
those not real, are they not matters of significance? But not because
of their native properties. Rather, "thinking makes it so". The
effect comes from a sharing of internal attitudes toward the symbol.

--Terry
James R. Black
2003-08-30 17:38:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry
Post by James R. Black
The point is
that the New Testament is emphatic that baptism in
fact *does* something important in the lives of those
who receive it. When Peter says, "baptism now saves
you", he wasn't just blowing hot air. He meant it.
We may feel that circumcision or baptism has more significance than
taking a shower, and that the Eucharist is something more than food
digested normally, but I suppose non Christians feel the same about
their own symbols, sacraments, or fetishes.
Indeed. And at least in some cases they would be
right. Paul is quite emphatic on this point: Those
who participate in pagan sacraments are sharers with
pagan gods (whom Paul identified as demons), just as
those who share in Christian sacraments are sharers
in Christ. [1 Corinthians 10:14-22] "You are what
you eat" applies to more than just physical nutrients.
Post by Terry
And people speak
similarly of abstractions such as marriage, money, title, or
citizenship. Would you suppose that your marriage ceremony did
nothing? It is hard to see what it did other than change your status
before the law and in the feelings of the community, both of which are
more the product of convention than anything else.
A sacramental marriage is much more than law or
feelings or convention. It is a means of grace.
Post by Terry
And what about a
ceremony of naturalization or the money in your bank account. Are
those not real, are they not matters of significance? But not because
of their native properties.
Don't be too sure. Naturalization involves a transfer
of allegiance from nation to nation, which may well
mean a transfer of "jurisdiction" from one spiritual
principality to another. As for "money in the bank",
Paul warns that too much concern about money is a form
of idolatry, and Jesus explicitly states that one cannot
serve "both God and Mammon".
Post by Terry
Rather, "thinking makes it so". The
effect comes from a sharing of internal attitudes toward the symbol.
If that's all it is, then none of this has any objective
reality, and all religion is reduced to nothing more than
a technique for self-actualization. That is not the
Christian faith, or any other kind of faith.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
James R. Black ***@jvlnet.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Terry
2003-08-31 20:44:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by James R. Black
Post by Terry
Post by James R. Black
The point is
that the New Testament is emphatic that baptism in
fact *does* something important in the lives of those
who receive it. When Peter says, "baptism now saves
you", he wasn't just blowing hot air. He meant it.
We may feel that circumcision or baptism has more significance than
taking a shower, and that the Eucharist is something more than food
digested normally, but I suppose non Christians feel the same about
their own symbols, sacraments, or fetishes.
Indeed. And at least in some cases they would be
right. Paul is quite emphatic on this point: Those
who participate in pagan sacraments are sharers with
pagan gods (whom Paul identified as demons), just as
those who share in Christian sacraments are sharers
in Christ. [1 Corinthians 10:14-22] "You are what
you eat" applies to more than just physical nutrients.
Post by Terry
And people speak
similarly of abstractions such as marriage, money, title, or
citizenship. Would you suppose that your marriage ceremony did
nothing? It is hard to see what it did other than change your status
before the law and in the feelings of the community, both of which are
more the product of convention than anything else.
A sacramental marriage is much more than law or
feelings or convention. It is a means of grace.
Post by Terry
And what about a
ceremony of naturalization or the money in your bank account. Are
those not real, are they not matters of significance? But not because
of their native properties.
Don't be too sure. Naturalization involves a transfer
of allegiance from nation to nation, which may well
mean a transfer of "jurisdiction" from one spiritual
principality to another. As for "money in the bank",
Paul warns that too much concern about money is a form
of idolatry, and Jesus explicitly states that one cannot
serve "both God and Mammon".
Post by Terry
Rather, "thinking makes it so". The
effect comes from a sharing of internal attitudes toward the symbol.
If that's all it is, then none of this has any objective
reality, and all religion is reduced to nothing more than
a technique for self-actualization. That is not the
Christian faith, or any other kind of faith.
I don't know about that. The very words we read and write have
significance beyond their being a biproduct of the interaction of
cathode rays and the surface of your monitor. You see the word
"Christian" and it has a wealth of significance not shared by other
words and certainly not shared by a random string of characters
("afanw#%3a;034"). There is no measurable property of the symbols on
your screen that gives them meaning, nor will the symbols gain
objective reality by being printed or carved in stone or spoken.
Would it follow that words have no objective reality at all?

--Terry
James R. Black
2003-08-31 23:50:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry
Post by James R. Black
Post by Terry
Rather, "thinking makes it so". The
effect comes from a sharing of internal attitudes toward the symbol.
If that's all it is, then none of this has any objective
reality, and all religion is reduced to nothing more than
a technique for self-actualization. That is not the
Christian faith, or any other kind of faith.
I don't know about that. The very words we read and write have
significance beyond their being a biproduct of the interaction of
cathode rays and the surface of your monitor. You see the word
"Christian" and it has a wealth of significance not shared by other
words and certainly not shared by a random string of characters
("afanw#%3a;034"). There is no measurable property of the symbols on
your screen that gives them meaning, nor will the symbols gain
objective reality by being printed or carved in stone or spoken.
Would it follow that words have no objective reality at all?
"Thinking makes it so" only as far as the reach
of our own powers.

A man who has an imaginary wife may draw some
temporary comfort from his delusion, but his
imaginary wife will not bear him any children.

A man who jumps off a tall building thinking
he can fly by flapping his arms will still go
splat on the sidewalk below.

A man who eats styrofoam food may have a full
belly, but no matter how much he may think he
has eaten a meal, he will obtain no nutrition
from it.

A man who believes in a God who isn't there
may gain some temporary psychological advantage
from doing so, but a nonexistent deity cannot
grant him eternal life.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
James R. Black ***@jvlnet.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Dufour
2003-09-01 06:49:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by James R. Black
A man who believes in a God who isn't there
may gain some temporary psychological advantage
from doing so, but a nonexistent deity cannot
grant him eternal life.
But his belief might inspire him to live a good life. And that might
be the most important thing after all.
James R. Black
2003-09-01 20:37:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by James R. Black
A man who believes in a God who isn't there
may gain some temporary psychological advantage
from doing so, but a nonexistent deity cannot
grant him eternal life.
But his belief might inspire him to live a good life.
If it's a belief in the wrong god, or even a false
belief about the right God, his belief could also
inspire him to live a very bad life indeed.

Belief, faith, spirituality, etc., are not good in
themselves; their value (or lack thereof) lies in
how well they are aligned with reality. The Nazis
and the Communists held strong beliefs; religious
terrorists are often motivated by a faith which is
far stronger than that of the average person; many
a vicious war has been fought by people with a deep
personal spirituality. Yet few would describe the
results as "living a good life."

---------------------------------------------------------------------
James R. Black ***@jvlnet.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Terry
2003-09-01 16:14:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by James R. Black
Post by Terry
Post by James R. Black
Post by Terry
Rather, "thinking makes it so". The
effect comes from a sharing of internal attitudes toward the symbol.
If that's all it is, then none of this has any objective
reality, and all religion is reduced to nothing more than
a technique for self-actualization. That is not the
Christian faith, or any other kind of faith.
I don't know about that. The very words we read and write have
significance beyond their being a biproduct of the interaction of
cathode rays and the surface of your monitor. You see the word
"Christian" and it has a wealth of significance not shared by other
words and certainly not shared by a random string of characters
("afanw#%3a;034"). There is no measurable property of the symbols on
your screen that gives them meaning, nor will the symbols gain
objective reality by being printed or carved in stone or spoken.
Would it follow that words have no objective reality at all?
"Thinking makes it so" only as far as the reach
of our own powers.
A man who has an imaginary wife may draw some
temporary comfort from his delusion, but his
imaginary wife will not bear him any children.
A man who jumps off a tall building thinking
he can fly by flapping his arms will still go
splat on the sidewalk below.
A man who eats styrofoam food may have a full
belly, but no matter how much he may think he
has eaten a meal, he will obtain no nutrition
from it.
A man who believes in a God who isn't there
may gain some temporary psychological advantage
from doing so, but a nonexistent deity cannot
grant him eternal life.
I think you have wandered off the point. These are all examples of
what one person thinks to himself. By contrast I am citing examples
of symbols or rituals whose power comes from a shared attitude, a
collective attitude toward the symbol or ritual.

Whether or not God exists is a separate matter. My point is not to
think that symbols or rituals have power beyond what we grant. They
are not a means of bargaining with God, influencing God, or affecting
God in any other way. Consulting the Urim and Thummim will not cause
God to grant you knowledge; looking at Moses' bronze snake will not
cause God to heal you of snake venom; baptism does not cause
salvation. Rather, these worldly things are for us. God will do what
God will do regardless of our pleasing or well executed sacrifice.

It is God's will that is done regardless of your well presented and
heartfelt prayer. The act of praying exists to help you accept God's
will.

It is a mistake, I think, to mistake the sign for what it signifies.

--Terry
James R. Black
2003-09-01 21:15:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry
Post by James R. Black
A man who believes in a God who isn't there
may gain some temporary psychological advantage
from doing so, but a nonexistent deity cannot
grant him eternal life.
I think you have wandered off the point. These are all examples of
what one person thinks to himself. By contrast I am citing examples
of symbols or rituals whose power comes from a shared attitude, a
collective attitude toward the symbol or ritual.
In the final analysis it makes no difference. Error
compounded by the millions is still error, except
now there's a lot more of it.
Post by Terry
Whether or not God exists is a separate matter. My point is not to
think that symbols or rituals have power beyond what we grant.
They have such power if *God* grants it; they have
to, or else God is not God. And it seems that he
does occasionally grant such power to "symbols and
rituals", especially the ones that he himself has
ordained.
Post by Terry
They
are not a means of bargaining with God, influencing God, or affecting
God in any other way.
This runs entirely contrary to the whole tenor of
Scripture, both Old and New Testaments, which teach
again and again that if man does X, God will do Y,
while if man does not do X, God will do Z instead.
Post by Terry
Consulting the Urim and Thummim will not cause
God to grant you knowledge; looking at Moses' bronze snake will not
cause God to heal you of snake venom; baptism does not cause
salvation. Rather, these worldly things are for us. God will do what
God will do regardless of our pleasing or well executed sacrifice.
Certainly God can do anything he wishes, and he
does not need sacraments or sacrifices from us.
But as Tolkien himself noted many times (and this
did begin as a "Tolkien" thread), for some reason
God has condescended to allow us to be "co-creators"
with him. He has given us certain things to do in
this world, and those things *matter*. They have
real consequences, both material *and* spiritual.
Certainly one cannot coerce God; but if we do the
things which God himself has told us to do in order
to obtain a certain result, do we have no grounds
at all for believing what he has told us? God does
not say to Moses, "If you feel like it, make a snake
and put it on a pole for the people to look at, and
if I'm in the mood that day or it otherwise pleases
me or conforms to my inscrutable eternal purposes,
I might heal them--or not, as the case may be."
Rather he says to Moses, "Make a snake and put it
up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it
and live." Nor do we see Moses replying, "But Lord,
can't you just heal them without all that trouble?
Surely you don't expect us to believe that looking
at a stupid bronze snake is going to *make* you heal
us!" No, Moses does as he is told; and the result
is that "when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked
at the bronze snake, he lived." [Numbers 21:9]
Post by Terry
It is God's will that is done regardless of your well presented and
heartfelt prayer. The act of praying exists to help you accept God's
will.
Again, this goes completely contrary to the teaching
of Scripture from beginning to end. We find story
after story which says, "So and so prayed for this
and that, and God heard him and did as he asked."
James tells us that "the prayer of a righteous man
is very powerful". Powerful to do *what*? If you
are right, all he could have meant was that "the
prayer of a righteous man is good at helping the
righteous man accept what God was already going to
do anyway." I seriously doubt that's what James
really meant.
Post by Terry
It is a mistake, I think, to mistake the sign for what it signifies.
According to Catholic (i.e., Tolkien's) theology,
the signs ordained by God "contain the grace they
signify and bestow it on those who do not hinder
it." Not because we say so, or because our thinking
makes it so, but because that is the way God decided
to set things up.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
James R. Black ***@jvlnet.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Terry
2003-09-02 02:48:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by James R. Black
Post by Terry
Post by James R. Black
A man who believes in a God who isn't there
may gain some temporary psychological advantage
from doing so, but a nonexistent deity cannot
grant him eternal life.
I think you have wandered off the point. These are all examples of
what one person thinks to himself. By contrast I am citing examples
of symbols or rituals whose power comes from a shared attitude, a
collective attitude toward the symbol or ritual.
In the final analysis it makes no difference. Error
compounded by the millions is still error, except
now there's a lot more of it.
Post by Terry
Whether or not God exists is a separate matter. My point is not to
think that symbols or rituals have power beyond what we grant.
They have such power if *God* grants it; they have
to, or else God is not God. And it seems that he
does occasionally grant such power to "symbols and
rituals", especially the ones that he himself has
ordained.
Post by Terry
They
are not a means of bargaining with God, influencing God, or affecting
God in any other way.
This runs entirely contrary to the whole tenor of
Scripture, both Old and New Testaments, which teach
again and again that if man does X, God will do Y,
while if man does not do X, God will do Z instead.
Post by Terry
Consulting the Urim and Thummim will not cause
God to grant you knowledge; looking at Moses' bronze snake will not
cause God to heal you of snake venom; baptism does not cause
salvation. Rather, these worldly things are for us. God will do what
God will do regardless of our pleasing or well executed sacrifice.
Certainly God can do anything he wishes, and he
does not need sacraments or sacrifices from us.
But as Tolkien himself noted many times (and this
did begin as a "Tolkien" thread), for some reason
God has condescended to allow us to be "co-creators"
with him. He has given us certain things to do in
this world, and those things *matter*. They have
real consequences, both material *and* spiritual.
Certainly one cannot coerce God; but if we do the
things which God himself has told us to do in order
to obtain a certain result, do we have no grounds
at all for believing what he has told us? God does
not say to Moses, "If you feel like it, make a snake
and put it on a pole for the people to look at, and
if I'm in the mood that day or it otherwise pleases
me or conforms to my inscrutable eternal purposes,
I might heal them--or not, as the case may be."
Rather he says to Moses, "Make a snake and put it
up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it
and live." Nor do we see Moses replying, "But Lord,
can't you just heal them without all that trouble?
Surely you don't expect us to believe that looking
at a stupid bronze snake is going to *make* you heal
us!" No, Moses does as he is told; and the result
is that "when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked
at the bronze snake, he lived." [Numbers 21:9]
Post by Terry
It is God's will that is done regardless of your well presented and
heartfelt prayer. The act of praying exists to help you accept God's
will.
Again, this goes completely contrary to the teaching
of Scripture from beginning to end. We find story
after story which says, "So and so prayed for this
and that, and God heard him and did as he asked."
James tells us that "the prayer of a righteous man
is very powerful". Powerful to do *what*? If you
are right, all he could have meant was that "the
prayer of a righteous man is good at helping the
righteous man accept what God was already going to
do anyway." I seriously doubt that's what James
really meant.
Post by Terry
It is a mistake, I think, to mistake the sign for what it signifies.
According to Catholic (i.e., Tolkien's) theology,
the signs ordained by God "contain the grace they
signify and bestow it on those who do not hinder
it." Not because we say so, or because our thinking
makes it so, but because that is the way God decided
to set things up.
Even if there was a set of rituals on which Tolkien and all other
Catholics agreed I don't think that the set would take the form of "if
man does X, God will do Y, while if man does not do X, God will do Z
instead".

As for "the prayer of a righteous man is good at helping the righteous
man accept what God was already going to do anyway" I think that is
exactly the point.

We may find it comforting to think of rituals as being endorsed by God
but they are just inventions of humans who fumble around trying to
understand God's will. With varying degrees of insight we create
those rituals in terms of our own understanding and our own needs and
change those rituals as our insight and needs change. These days we
do look favorably on the sale of indulgences and there is no request
to "save us from the fury of the Northmen" in contemporary prayers.

What I am saying here is hardly news. Even at the request of
Constantine no definitive set of texts and rituals for a Christian
religion could be provided. Over time standards and creeds were
adopted (generally, if not always universally) and later adapted.
There are histories of those matters.

--Terry
James R. Black
2003-09-04 01:06:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry
Post by James R. Black
According to Catholic (i.e., Tolkien's) theology,
the signs ordained by God "contain the grace they
signify and bestow it on those who do not hinder
it." Not because we say so, or because our thinking
makes it so, but because that is the way God decided
to set things up.
Even if there was a set of rituals on which Tolkien and all other
Catholics agreed
There has been such a set for a very long time. They're
called "sacraments".
Post by Terry
I don't think that the set would take the form of "if
man does X, God will do Y, while if man does not do X, God will do Z
instead".
They pretty much do. If the Church baptizes someone,
God washes away their sins and makes them part of the
Body of Christ. If the Church consecrates bread and
wine, God turns it into the Body and Blood of Christ.
If the Church hears a sinner's confession and gives
him absolution, God grants the sinner pardon for his
sins. That's what sacraments are about: they contain
the grace they signify.
Post by Terry
As for "the prayer of a righteous man is good at helping the righteous
man accept what God was already going to do anyway" I think that is
exactly the point.
It may be *your* point, but I hardly think it was the
point that James was trying to make.
Post by Terry
We may find it comforting to think of rituals as being endorsed by God
but they are just inventions of humans who fumble around trying to
understand God's will.
Your opinion, not shared by most people who call
themselves Christians.
Post by Terry
With varying degrees of insight we create
those rituals in terms of our own understanding and our own needs and
change those rituals as our insight and needs change.
Adaptation to current situations is not the same thing
as wholesale abandonment of the old and invention of
the new out of whole cloth. The essential forms of
Baptism, Eucharist, Anointing of the Sick, etc., are
described in the New Testament and haven't changed in
1900 years. We may pour instead of immerse, but we
don't abandon water in favor of Ranch dressing--nor
do we abandon baptism altogether in favor of mud
wrestling. We may have elaborated the ceremony of
the Lord's Supper, but we don't try to consecrate
Doritos and Coca-Cola just because they are more
"relevant" than plain bread and wine.
Post by Terry
These days we
do look favorably on the sale of indulgences
I assume there's a missing "not" in this sentence.
And in any case, indulgences are not in the same
league with things like Baptism and Eucharist.
Post by Terry
and there is no request
to "save us from the fury of the Northmen" in contemporary prayers.
No, but there may well be a request to "save us from
the terrorists", which amounts to the same thing.
Post by Terry
What I am saying here is hardly news. Even at the request of
Constantine no definitive set of texts and rituals for a Christian
religion could be provided.
That's because the minor details of liturgy were (and
to a considerable extent still are) determined at the
local level. But at the level of "what we are about
when we do this"--the core theology behind it and the
essential elements around which all the local details
are arranged--things are pretty much what they have
always been since the time of the Apostles.
Post by Terry
Over time standards and creeds were
adopted (generally, if not always universally) and later adapted.
There are histories of those matters.
Indeed. But, again, there are limits. The leopard
may change his spots, but he doesn't turn into a
platypus.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
James R. Black ***@jvlnet.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Terry
2003-09-04 15:54:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by James R. Black
Post by Terry
Post by James R. Black
According to Catholic (i.e., Tolkien's) theology,
the signs ordained by God "contain the grace they
signify and bestow it on those who do not hinder
it." Not because we say so, or because our thinking
makes it so, but because that is the way God decided
to set things up.
Even if there was a set of rituals on which Tolkien and all other
Catholics agreed
There has been such a set for a very long time. They're
called "sacraments".
I think you are wandering off the point again. The discussion was not
does a sacrament exists, rather it was how is a sacrament celebrated.
The example was baptism, by immersion, dunking, sprinkling ... , and
there was a suggestion that if the execution is not proper then the
person baptized is not really a Christian. This I think, is a
mistake. When we come to saying "You were not baptized in such and
such a manner therefore you are not a Christian" we are missing the
point. We grant the ritual itself more power than it really has. We
have mistaken the sign for what the sign signifies.
Post by James R. Black
Post by Terry
I don't think that the set would take the form of "if
man does X, God will do Y, while if man does not do X, God will do Z
instead".
They pretty much do. If the Church baptizes someone,
God washes away their sins and makes them part of the
Body of Christ. If the Church consecrates bread and
wine, God turns it into the Body and Blood of Christ.
If the Church hears a sinner's confession and gives
him absolution, God grants the sinner pardon for his
sins. That's what sacraments are about: they contain
the grace they signify.
I think there is some work to be done on the expression of this point.
This still sounds too ritualistic, too much like bargaining with God,
influencing God. It sounds as if a properly executed ritual will
produce certain results, like practicing magic. As if you save
yourself by participating in baptism or call absolution upon yourself
though confession. I think that if you inquire about how much does a
man participate in his own salvation the answer will produce a
different picture.
Post by James R. Black
Post by Terry
As for "the prayer of a righteous man is good at helping the righteous
man accept what God was already going to do anyway" I think that is
exactly the point.
It may be *your* point, but I hardly think it was the
point that James was trying to make.
I would find it difficult to accept an interpretation of Jesus' prayer
in the Garden as an effort to get around God's will. What ever power
there is in prayer I don't think that it is the power to persuade God.
Post by James R. Black
Post by Terry
We may find it comforting to think of rituals as being endorsed by God
but they are just inventions of humans who fumble around trying to
understand God's will.
Your opinion, not shared by most people who call
themselves Christians.
Probably so. Most are not willing to put their practice to critical
evaluation, or to study the history of these matters. Sometimes that
leads to people thinking that the way we do things right now is the
way that they have always been, or is the way that was enshrined by
God. Sometimes it leads to worse things.
Post by James R. Black
Post by Terry
With varying degrees of insight we create
those rituals in terms of our own understanding and our own needs and
change those rituals as our insight and needs change.
Adaptation to current situations is not the same thing
as wholesale abandonment of the old and invention of
the new out of whole cloth. The essential forms of
Baptism, Eucharist, Anointing of the Sick, etc., are
described in the New Testament and haven't changed in
1900 years. We may pour instead of immerse, but we
don't abandon water in favor of Ranch dressing--nor
do we abandon baptism altogether in favor of mud
wrestling. We may have elaborated the ceremony of
the Lord's Supper, but we don't try to consecrate
Doritos and Coca-Cola just because they are more
"relevant" than plain bread and wine.
I think that for some of those things 1800 or 1600 might be more
accurate. For other matters (say, that non clergy are allowed to read
the Bible) have shorter histories. These matters do have a history of
negotiation, similar to secular laws.
Post by James R. Black
Post by Terry
These days we
do look favorably on the sale of indulgences
I assume there's a missing "not" in this sentence.
And in any case, indulgences are not in the same
league with things like Baptism and Eucharist.
Quite correct, there is a missing "not". Earlier you mentioned
confession and absolution in the context of sacraments, along side
Baptism and Eucharist. In saying that indulgences are not in the same
league have you changed your mind? Indulgences were merely a more
convenient means of purchasing absolution. Make your payment in
advance and avoid the inconvenient ritual of confession.
Post by James R. Black
Post by Terry
and there is no request
to "save us from the fury of the Northmen" in contemporary prayers.
No, but there may well be a request to "save us from
the terrorists", which amounts to the same thing.
Post by Terry
What I am saying here is hardly news. Even at the request of
Constantine no definitive set of texts and rituals for a Christian
religion could be provided.
That's because the minor details of liturgy were (and
to a considerable extent still are) determined at the
local level. But at the level of "what we are about
when we do this"--the core theology behind it and the
essential elements around which all the local details
are arranged--things are pretty much what they have
always been since the time of the Apostles.
Again, these things have a history.

At the time of Constantine there were more local differences than
minor details of liturgy. For instance there was no Bible for
Constantine to endorse (rendering "The Gnostics weaseled out of most
of the Bible that way" anachronistic). The question of "what books
are we going to use" seems to me a quite significant matter that was
determined at the local level.

Constantine's need to have consistent policy for his newly adopted
state religion did a lot to further the cause of standardization but
complete standardization on the Bible would be a while yet in coming.

Looking back further in time there appears to have been greater
diversity in the beliefs and practices of early Christians than there
is today, with our many denominations. Shall we include the Gospel of
Peter along side the four witnesses? What about the count and value
of evangelical letters? Even matters of core theology, like the
Nicene Creed, were subject to development and negotiation.
Post by James R. Black
Post by Terry
Over time standards and creeds were
adopted (generally, if not always universally) and later adapted.
There are histories of those matters.
Indeed. But, again, there are limits. The leopard
may change his spots, but he doesn't turn into a
platypus.
To me the history of these matters really does resemble an evolution
from a leopard to a platypus. For instance, I don't see the change in
view of about the appropriateness of selling indulgences or selling
the positions of church offices as minor details of liturgy. To me
the thought that we might "abandon water in favor of Ranch dressing"
seems more palatable than the thought that absolution can be sold. It
appears to me that at times the Church really did become a different
animal.

--Terry
James R. Black
2003-09-10 04:05:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry
Post by James R. Black
Post by Terry
Post by James R. Black
According to Catholic (i.e., Tolkien's) theology,
the signs ordained by God "contain the grace they
signify and bestow it on those who do not hinder
it." Not because we say so, or because our thinking
makes it so, but because that is the way God decided
to set things up.
Even if there was a set of rituals on which Tolkien and all other
Catholics agreed
There has been such a set for a very long time. They're
called "sacraments".
I think you are wandering off the point again. The discussion was not
does a sacrament exists, rather it was how is a sacrament celebrated.
The example was baptism, by immersion, dunking, sprinkling ... , and
there was a suggestion that if the execution is not proper then the
person baptized is not really a Christian. This I think, is a
mistake.
But if, as is believed by all orthodox Catholics (Tolkien
included), the sign "contains the grace it signifies and
bestows it on those who do not hinder it", then it must
be *this* sign and not *that* sign. That is, it must be
a sign which actually does signify a particular grace and
is capable of containing that grace. In order for it to
signify the grace, it must bear some reasonable symbolic
relation to it. For Baptism we use water because water
signifies cleansing; for Eucharist we use bread and wine
because these signify flesh and blood consumed as nourish-
ment. These are not things we can tamper with arbitrarily.
Post by Terry
When we come to saying "You were not baptized in such and
such a manner therefore you are not a Christian" we are missing the
point. We grant the ritual itself more power than it really has. We
have mistaken the sign for what the sign signifies.
All grace comes from God, so for a sign to be capable
of actually conveying grace it must be a sign which God
himself has ordained, or at least is willing to accept,
as a vehicle through which he will condescend to distri-
bute the grace that can only come from him. If God says,
"baptize in water", then we baptize in water--not motor
oil. And if we decide we're going to use motor oil any-
way, we have no reason to believe that we still have a
true sacrament; all we have is a cleanup problem.
Post by Terry
Post by James R. Black
If the Church baptizes someone,
God washes away their sins and makes them part of the
Body of Christ. If the Church consecrates bread and
wine, God turns it into the Body and Blood of Christ.
If the Church hears a sinner's confession and gives
him absolution, God grants the sinner pardon for his
sins. That's what sacraments are about: they contain
the grace they signify.
I think there is some work to be done on the expression of this point.
This still sounds too ritualistic, too much like bargaining with God,
influencing God. It sounds as if a properly executed ritual will
produce certain results, like practicing magic. As if you save
yourself by participating in baptism or call absolution upon yourself
though confession. I think that if you inquire about how much does a
man participate in his own salvation the answer will produce a
different picture.
Again, Catholic theology says that the sacraments bestow
the grace they signifiy *on those who do not hinder it*.
If an adult receives baptism but has no faith, then he
will probably not receive the grace of baptism. If he
receives the Eucharist without discerning the Body and
Blood of Christ under the elements, he may not receive
the grace of the Eucharist--in fact, he may well be
eating and drinking judgment upon himself. And so on.
So, yes, we do "participate" in our own salvation; we
must be properly disposed in order to receive the grace
which the sacraments contain and convey. That doesn't
make it "magic"; it just means that God is faithful to
do what he has said he will do when we do the things he
has told us to do.
Post by Terry
Post by James R. Black
Post by Terry
As for "the prayer of a righteous man is good at helping the righteous
man accept what God was already going to do anyway" I think that is
exactly the point.
It may be *your* point, but I hardly think it was the
point that James was trying to make.
I would find it difficult to accept an interpretation of Jesus' prayer
in the Garden as an effort to get around God's will.
Not to "get around" God's will--he was pretty clear
on that point--but certainly a plea for "some other
way" if any such way could be found.
Post by Terry
What ever power
there is in prayer I don't think that it is the power to persuade God.
You are certainly free to think that if you like, but
it goes contrary to the whole teaching of Scripture
in both Old and New Testaments.
Post by Terry
Post by James R. Black
Post by Terry
We may find it comforting to think of rituals as being endorsed by God
but they are just inventions of humans who fumble around trying to
understand God's will.
Your opinion, not shared by most people who call
themselves Christians.
Probably so. Most are not willing to put their practice to critical
evaluation, or to study the history of these matters. Sometimes that
leads to people thinking that the way we do things right now is the
way that they have always been, or is the way that was enshrined by
God. Sometimes it leads to worse things.
Indeed. But you seem to have gone to the other far
extreme, of denying that there is *anything* of God in
what we do. You seem to think that everything we do
in the name of religion is nothing more than human
invention which may, if we are particularly clever,
have certain beneficial psychosocial consequences.
If that's all we're about, then we can dispense with
God altogether and simply construct a religion for
ourselves as seems best to us, by reference only to
the latest findings of psychology and sociology.
Again, you are free to attempt it if you wish (and
indeed others have done exactly that in our own time),
but whatever you might thus invent would not have any-
thing to do with the historic claims of the Christian
faith, or with the God who claims to reveal himself
through that faith.
Post by Terry
Post by James R. Black
Post by Terry
These days we
do look favorably on the sale of indulgences
I assume there's a missing "not" in this sentence.
And in any case, indulgences are not in the same
league with things like Baptism and Eucharist.
Quite correct, there is a missing "not". Earlier you mentioned
confession and absolution in the context of sacraments, along side
Baptism and Eucharist. In saying that indulgences are not in the same
league have you changed your mind? Indulgences were merely a more
convenient means of purchasing absolution. Make your payment in
advance and avoid the inconvenient ritual of confession.
This is simply not true. Indulgences have nothing
to do with absolution, which is a remission of the
guilt of sin after contrition and confession. The
sole value of indulgences, even at the height of
the medieval abuses, was to remit the temporal
punishment for sin--in essence, to gain a lighter
penance. You can't (and couldn't, even in the bad
old days) "purchase absolution", much less avoid
"the inconvenient ritual of confession" by "making
payment in advance".
Post by Terry
Post by James R. Black
the minor details of liturgy were (and
to a considerable extent still are) determined at the
local level. But at the level of "what we are about
when we do this"--the core theology behind it and the
essential elements around which all the local details
are arranged--things are pretty much what they have
always been since the time of the Apostles.
Again, these things have a history.
Yes, they do, and I'm not entirely ignorant of that
history.
Post by Terry
At the time of Constantine there were more local differences than
minor details of liturgy. For instance there was no Bible for
Constantine to endorse (rendering "The Gnostics weaseled out of most
of the Bible that way" anachronistic). The question of "what books
are we going to use" seems to me a quite significant matter that was
determined at the local level.
While there was no established canon in Constantine's
day, there was a large measure of agreement on the
core of what later became the canon: the bulk of the
Old Testament, the four gospels, the major letters of
Paul, etc. And it was precisely these core books that
the Gnostics were "weaseling out of".
Post by Terry
Constantine's need to have consistent policy for his newly adopted
state religion did a lot to further the cause of standardization but
complete standardization on the Bible would be a while yet in coming.
In some sense it is still not completely standardized,
since different canons are used by Protestants, Catholics,
Abyssinians, Armenians, etc. That does not mean, however,
that these people all practice different religions.
Post by Terry
Looking back further in time there appears to have been greater
diversity in the beliefs and practices of early Christians than there
is today, with our many denominations. Shall we include the Gospel of
Peter along side the four witnesses? What about the count and value
of evangelical letters? Even matters of core theology, like the
Nicene Creed, were subject to development and negotiation.
Actually, I doubt there was nearly as much diversity
in the early Church as there is today among people
who claim the name of "Christian". The exact count
of gospels or letters is of less importance than the
principles by which they are interpreted; if one were
to interpret the Gospel of Peter according to the "rule
of faith" used in the early Catholic Church, it would
do little if any damage. What mattered was not so much
the written text as the living tradition, and there is
reason to believe that this tradition was surprisingly
uniform in its core beliefs and practices throughout
the churches which could claim apostolic foundations.
Post by Terry
Post by James R. Black
Post by Terry
Over time standards and creeds were
adopted (generally, if not always universally) and later adapted.
There are histories of those matters.
Indeed. But, again, there are limits. The leopard
may change his spots, but he doesn't turn into a
platypus.
To me the history of these matters really does resemble an evolution
from a leopard to a platypus. For instance, I don't see the change in
view of about the appropriateness of selling indulgences or selling
the positions of church offices as minor details of liturgy.
Actually they are differences of discipline, and are
extremely minor in the grand scheme of things.
Post by Terry
To me
the thought that we might "abandon water in favor of Ranch dressing"
seems more palatable than the thought that absolution can be sold.
As may be--but since absolution could *not* be sold,
then or now, you needn't worry overmuch about making
that choice.
Post by Terry
It
appears to me that at times the Church really did become a different
animal.
At times some portions of it did--and were subsequently
either reformed by the Holy Spirit or swept away by the
forces of history. At its core, however, the Church is
still pretty much what it has always been. Sometimes it
drifts off course, sometimes it makes even catastrophic
blunders which cause great suffering and have to be
corrected; but eventually it always finds its way again,
and returns to what it always was from the beginning.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
James R. Black ***@jvlnet.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Dufour
2003-09-01 23:05:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry
I think you have wandered off the point. These are all examples of
what one person thinks to himself. By contrast I am citing examples
of symbols or rituals whose power comes from a shared attitude, a
collective attitude toward the symbol or ritual.
Whether or not God exists is a separate matter. My point is not to
think that symbols or rituals have power beyond what we grant. They
are not a means of bargaining with God, influencing God, or affecting
God in any other way. Consulting the Urim and Thummim will not cause
God to grant you knowledge; looking at Moses' bronze snake will not
cause God to heal you of snake venom; baptism does not cause
salvation. Rather, these worldly things are for us. God will do what
God will do regardless of our pleasing or well executed sacrifice.
It is God's will that is done regardless of your well presented and
heartfelt prayer. The act of praying exists to help you accept God's
will.
It is a mistake, I think, to mistake the sign for what it signifies.
Thanks. Great point.
Post by Terry
--Terry
James R. Black
2003-08-28 15:55:17 UTC
Permalink
Actually, I didn't. The comment you are responding to came
from someone else.
Post by the softrat
St. Peter doesn't say anything about 'dipping' someone,
technically true, but this is a bit of an example of applying hard rules
of classical greek to a text written in secular greek. If one looks at
the first century didache, for instance, it talks about 'baptising by
sprinkling'.
Not "sprinkling", but pouring--specifically on the head.
The overal notion of baptism was to anoint one with water,
Or rather to "wash"--hence the requirement that there
be sufficient water for it to "flow".
and the
precise means wasn't overly critical to the main idea
Agreed.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
James R. Black ***@jvlnet.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Ash Wyrd
2003-08-28 02:38:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by the softrat
Post by Jason Atkinson
Dunking someone in water is an important symbol but it doesn't "save"
anyone.
"God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during
the building of the Ark, in which a few ... were
saved through water. And baptism, which this
prefigured, now saves you ..." [1 Peter 3:20-21]
Now there: St. Peter doesn't say anything about 'dipping' someone, now
does he? Through water as a symbol of life and cleanliness, yes;
through total immersion, no.
Total imersion is implicit in the comparison to the deluge.
the softrat
2003-08-28 04:43:49 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:38:56 -0500, "Ash Wyrd"
Post by Ash Wyrd
Post by the softrat
Post by Jason Atkinson
Dunking someone in water is an important symbol but it doesn't "save"
anyone.
"God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during
the building of the Ark, in which a few ... were
saved through water. And baptism, which this
prefigured, now saves you ..." [1 Peter 3:20-21]
Now there: St. Peter doesn't say anything about 'dipping' someone, now
does he? Through water as a symbol of life and cleanliness, yes;
through total immersion, no.
Total imersion is implicit in the comparison to the deluge.
I don't remember Noah being dipped.....


the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
Communism is man's exploitation of man. Capitalism is just the
opposite.
Steve Hayes
2003-08-28 04:43:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash Wyrd
Post by the softrat
Post by Jason Atkinson
Dunking someone in water is an important symbol but it doesn't "save"
anyone.
"God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during
the building of the Ark, in which a few ... were
saved through water. And baptism, which this
prefigured, now saves you ..." [1 Peter 3:20-21]
Now there: St. Peter doesn't say anything about 'dipping' someone, now
does he? Through water as a symbol of life and cleanliness, yes;
through total immersion, no.
Total imersion is implicit in the comparison to the deluge.
And the ones that were totally immersed weren't saved.
--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: ***@yahoo.com
Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm
the softrat
2003-08-28 05:46:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
And the ones that were totally immersed weren't saved.
No! No! The TRUE Christian position is that only the drowned will be
saved.


the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
Drugs cause amnesia and other things I can't remember...
Steve Hayes
2003-08-29 01:42:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by the softrat
Post by Steve Hayes
And the ones that were totally immersed weren't saved.
No! No! The TRUE Christian position is that only the drowned will be
saved.
You mean naughty Mr Noah has been having us on all these years?
--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: ***@yahoo.com
Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm
Ash Wyrd
2003-08-29 02:26:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by the softrat
Post by Steve Hayes
And the ones that were totally immersed weren't saved.
No! No! The TRUE Christian position is that only the drowned will be
saved.
You mean naughty Mr Noah has been having us on all these years?
It is mentioned that the deluge caused a few 11th hour repenters... Of
cource I higly doubt the validity of their promises.
None
2003-08-27 17:34:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Dufour
By Greg Wright from http://www.hollywoodjesus.com
Peter Jackson's Orcs
You know, looking at some of the answers given by the assumed
intelligentsia of aft I am fucking embarrassed to see the lack of
critical analysis and comment, particularly from AC whose critical
analysis of situations in Tolkien I have come to respect, and he wasn't
alone...

<snip>

Now, the David Day like reasoning and the mistakes...
Post by Steve Dufour
Does this make Tolkien racist? To be sure, the humanoids of
#1. Fudged answer. Either answer the question or not, don't leave it
hanging, damning by association.
Post by Steve Dufour
But Rohan's separatism, for only one example, is
based more on ignorance, fear and mistrust than it is on ideology.
#2. It is based on bitter experience as far as Orcs are concerned.
Post by Steve Dufour
But again, to be English is to recognize and accept
the significance of bloodlines and lineage: to know your place in the
world, and to embrace it.
#3. Terrible parody of Brits everywhere.
Post by Steve Dufour
At the same time, a worthy monarch of
Middle-Earth knows what it is to be truly noble, and that nobility
cannot be reduced to station alone. Even the lowliest may be worthy of
great honor through loyalty, faithfulness, courage and service -- thus
Aragorn and Eomer may confer status and position upon mere Hobbits,
that peculiar and unique "branch of the specifically human race."
#4. "Worthy" Monarchs yes, what about the unworthy ones [Ar Pharazon for
example - oops, he hasn't read the Akallabeth, surprise, surprise]. Yet
another bullshit interlude. Exposition for expositions sake and no
conclusion.
Post by Steve Dufour
And Just What the Heck Are Orcs?
But the real key to understanding Tolkien's feelings about race is to
address the issue of the Elves, and their counterparts -- the Orcs.
For here we see in Tolkien truly distinct races. The Dwarves are also
racially different from the human family; but Elves and Orcs are
actually related, the Orcs in dark ages past having been corruptly
bred from the nobility of Elvish stock by dark powers. Peter Jackson's
movies bring this legend into the foreground in Saruman's development
of a new breed of Orc, the "fighting Uruk-Hai," which he calls the
culmination of the ages-long process of corruption.
#5. I didn't see legends in the foreground at all. I saw a Jackson
cop-out, where the Orcs grew literally from a water filled plastic bag,
perhaps meant to be the literal interpretation of the "earth's womb".
Why go from Tolkien to Jackson? Oh, right, because he hasn't actually
READ Tolkien, just the Film Blurb. No Surprises there...
Post by Steve Dufour
And here, of course, it would be pretty easy to bring up the charges
of racism again: the Elves themselves are racially stratified into
"High" and "Low" classes, with the High Elves at times snobbishly
preferential on the basis of dialect and hair color; and, of course,
the Elves are all fair-skinned, while the corrupt Orcs are all
dark-skinned.
#6. Let's see now: The ones who left Cuivienen, the ones who strayed,
the ones who made it to the Great Sea, the ones who stayed, the three
kindreds who passed over it, the ones who lived under Thingol and
Melian, the Noldor who remained in Aman. Lots of different kinds of
Elves. Not sure where the Low Elves are. But that's probably to sharp a
line to draw for this woolly thinker.
Post by Steve Dufour
But what are Orcs, exactly? Tolkien was at great pains to explain the
nature of Elves. Unlike humans, whose eternal spirit is housed in a
fallen, corrupt body, Elves are simultaneously immortal -- Galadriel,
for only one example, has lived several thousands of years by the time
of The War of the Ring -- yet bound to a physical fate.
#7. Isn't it amazing that someone who must have read *something* of
Tolkien's work, and obviously knows about the ennoblement of the Edain
[Numenoreans] *still* hasn't a clue about the nature of Elvish and Human
Spirits and the differences these make to each races existence, never
mind the identical nature of their physical bodies. This "corruption"
crap is pure Christian bullshit. For shame sir, you are a fraud.
Post by Steve Dufour
Though Elvish
spirits pass to the Halls of Mandos, this is but a temporary and
finite residence. At the remaking of Arda (the End Times of
Middle-Earth) the Elves face an unknown future while the spirits of
Men will dwell on with Eru forever.
#8. The fates of men who leave middle earth are not known. This "living
happily ever after with Eru" crap is MORE Christian bullshit.
Post by Steve Dufour
As corrupted Elves, do Orcs share a similar fate? Are they long-lived
liked their nobler, purer kin? Those issues are never really addressed
by Tolkien. For what makes an Orc an Orc, as far as Tolkien is
concerned, is not the color of what passes for skin or even the nature
of what might be called the Orc's spirit -- it's what an Orc does, and
who an Orc serves.
#9. Another set of padding that that presents no thesis.
Post by Steve Dufour
The Orcs of Moria
[snip summary of Film plot interspersed with TOlkien names and
motivations - leading up to nothing at all to do with the essays' title]
Post by Steve Dufour
Whether in Tolkien or in Jackson -- but perhaps most clear in
Jackson's movies -- this gets us into the territory of defining what
it is that really makes an Orc orc-ish: misplaced allegiance.
#10. Ehrm, nope. The concept of "misplaced allegiance" defines the
losers in any battle, or the "others" whose moral correctness in their
struggle you want to undermine. Orcs may be defined as creatures with a
complete absence of morality. This stems from a complete lack of
conscience, which places them at a sub-human level. There are no "kind"
Orcs in Tolkien. Orcs are defined by their hatred of all other creatures
and of themselves, of their masters and their allies. Fear may shatter
them eventually, but for Orcs it holds them together long enough in the
face of an identifiable enemy to get the job done.
Post by Steve Dufour
The Effects of Idolatry
#11. [snip meandering blather which conveniently avoids discussing
idolatry, thus avoiding its basic precept - the politically incorrect
"The Christian WOrld View is the True World View". Just as well since
there are 1 Bn Christians in the world and 5 Bn of every other belief or
non-belief]

Tolkien stated that he detested allegory. I am sadly unimpressed by this
essay.


None.
Flame of the West
2003-09-07 04:26:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by None
You know, looking at some of the answers given by the assumed
intelligentsia of aft I am fucking embarrassed
That's great, using language like that when crossposting
to Christian and Catholic NG's. I don't think you could
clean up your filthy language if you tried.

-- FotW

Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
the softrat
2003-09-09 04:38:24 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 00:26:18 -0400, Flame of the West
Post by Flame of the West
Post by None
You know, looking at some of the answers given by the assumed
intelligentsia of aft I am fucking embarrassed
That's great, using language like that when crossposting
to Christian and Catholic NG's. I don't think you could
clean up your filthy language if you tried.
Maybe Satan has taken his soul.


the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm. -- Steven Wright
bd4u
2003-08-27 17:18:09 UTC
Permalink
all very interesting, but Tolkien always bristled at the notion LOTR was
any sort of allegory. I'm not certain he'd agree with the conclusions
you've suggested.
What's also interesting to me is how "Christians" like Hank Hanegraaff
can hail Tolkien as a man with "a deep abiding Christian faith" when the
man was a devout CATHOLIC! These same people like Hanegraaff who call
tolkien a great example of a Christian, label Catholics with the same
theology as JRR Tolkien as heretics, or at best, people whose salvation
is in question.
Rank hypocrisy on the Hankster's part. Either Tolkien is as much a lost
soul as the Catholics are, or devout Catholics are as saved as he was.
By the way, CS Lewis, an episcopalian whose works are also used by
Evangelicals, shared a theology virtually identical to Tolkien's, and
one acquaintance of his has stated he believed Lewis was not far from
converting to catholocism.
I've heard rumor Tolkien was a Mason. There is no doubt about
Tolkiens Trilogy, it fit's certain chapters of the OT like a glove.

If Tolkien was a Mason, it would explain his differences of
opinion when it came to religion. It would also explain his reaction
to *conversion* of faith, from the one he originated in.

Thomas Jefferson (also a Mason) was an Anglican his whole life.
He never really bothered to convert even tho it *was* the Kings
Religion. Thomas Jefferson believed in GOD, and the botherhood
of man. One thing he never believed in, is "seperatism".


Just wanted to throw that in as food for thought..

bd4u
the softrat
2003-08-27 19:27:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by bd4u
I've heard rumor Tolkien was a Mason.
That's exactly what they are: unfounded rumours, undoubtedly started
by people totally unfamiliar with the antagonistic historical
relationship between the Roman Catholic Church and Masonry.

PS: There is NO evidence that JRR Tolkien was a Mason.

PSS: Furthermore it is extremely unlikely since he WAS a devout
Catholic.

PSSS: Ever been to a Masonic ceremony? Those people are Pagans!


the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
Don't hate yourself in the morning -- sleep till noon.
bd4u
2003-08-27 23:25:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by the softrat
PS: There is NO evidence that JRR Tolkien was a Mason.
Doesn't mean he wasn't. Mason's tend to hide the fact they
are one.
I know a devout Mormon who is a Mason, i know this cause i saw
his ring. When i asked him about it, he didn't wanna talk about it.
They pride themselves on thier loyalty. It's not unusual to find a Mason
hidden in the ranks of administration of nearly every faith (particularly christian)
there is. When they join a particular church, thier own masonic code of ethics
keeps them from converting to any other. There are exceptions of course,
as individual will is persistant, but usually not without sufficient reason.

btw: I'm not saying Tolkien *was* a Mason, simply that there are rumors,
and the rumors seem to fit both his religious and political views in life.
It even comes out in his writings. Compare Tolkiens *world* with that
of Rudyard Kiplings, same social complexity, same use of paradigms, and
symbols. You do know of course that Kipling was a well known Mason?!?

best wishes..

bd4u
Ash Wyrd
2003-08-27 23:53:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by bd4u
btw: I'm not saying Tolkien *was* a Mason, simply that there are rumors,
and the rumors seem to fit both his religious and political views in life.
It even comes out in his writings. Compare Tolkiens *world* with that
of Rudyard Kiplings, same social complexity, same use of paradigms, and
symbols. You do know of course that Kipling was a well known Mason?!?
The same social complexity, same use of paradigms and symbols.... This sais
nothing, all works of fiction are based on the same set of archetypes,
re-interpreted through the cultural, and personal beliefs of the author...
bd4u
2003-08-28 01:38:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash Wyrd
Post by bd4u
btw: I'm not saying Tolkien *was* a Mason, simply that there are rumors,
and the rumors seem to fit both his religious and political views in life.
It even comes out in his writings. Compare Tolkiens *world* with that
of Rudyard Kiplings, same social complexity, same use of paradigms, and
symbols. You do know of course that Kipling was a well known Mason?!?
The same social complexity, same use of paradigms and symbols.... This sais
nothing, all works of fiction are based on the same set of archetypes,
re-interpreted through the cultural, and personal beliefs of the author...
I beg to differ, there is a *fabric* of exquisit detail underlying both
Tolkien, and Kipling that you can't find in any other fictional writings.

Particularly Tolkiens.. ..i was simply using Kipling in comparison.
To show a parrallel of ideas, and language usage.

Of course you could raise a further fuss about it if you want to!
Won't bugger me one bit, i'm just sharing ideas, and they ain't even
mine to boot!

bd4u
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
2003-08-28 03:46:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by bd4u
btw: I'm not saying Tolkien *was* a Mason, simply that there are rumors,
and the rumors seem to fit both his religious and political views in life.
It even comes out in his writings. Compare Tolkiens *world* with that
of Rudyard Kiplings, same social complexity, same use of paradigms, and
symbols. You do know of course that Kipling was a well known Mason?!?
you missed the point

rudyard wrote the lord of the rings
but his publisher felt it was so different from rest of his material
that it would damage his literay reputation
instead they convinced an obscure oxford professor and fellow mason
despite his obvious lack of imagination and ability
to pretend he was the author and publish in his name
bd4u
2003-08-28 04:21:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by bd4u
btw: I'm not saying Tolkien *was* a Mason, simply that there are rumors,
and the rumors seem to fit both his religious and political views in life.
It even comes out in his writings. Compare Tolkiens *world* with that
of Rudyard Kiplings, same social complexity, same use of paradigms, and
symbols. You do know of course that Kipling was a well known Mason?!?
you missed the point
rudyard wrote the lord of the rings
but his publisher felt it was so different from rest of his material
that it would damage his literay reputation
instead they convinced an obscure oxford professor and fellow mason
despite his obvious lack of imagination and ability
to pretend he was the author and publish in his name
My, my what world did you come from?!? I've NEVER
met anyone so "pixelated" in my entire life.
Post by coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
:-0 (look of astonishment)
;-)

bd4u
Chocoholic
2003-08-28 19:48:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by bd4u
Post by the softrat
PS: There is NO evidence that JRR Tolkien was a Mason.
Doesn't mean he wasn't. Mason's tend to hide the fact they
are one.
I know a devout Mormon who is a Mason, i know this cause i saw
his ring. When i asked him about it, he didn't wanna talk about it.
They pride themselves on thier loyalty. It's not unusual to find a Mason
hidden in the ranks of administration of nearly every faith (particularly christian)
there is. When they join a particular church, thier own masonic code of ethics
keeps them from converting to any other. There are exceptions of course,
as individual will is persistant, but usually not without sufficient reason.
btw: I'm not saying Tolkien *was* a Mason, simply that there are rumors,
and the rumors seem to fit both his religious and political views in life.
It even comes out in his writings. Compare Tolkiens *world* with that
of Rudyard Kiplings, same social complexity, same use of paradigms, and
symbols. You do know of course that Kipling was a well known Mason?!?
best wishes..
But Tolkien's daily routine was well known. He was _extremely_ busy. When
did he find tme to attend any Masonic meetings? Could he have done so
without anyone knowing it? You don't just 'become' a Mason. It's an
organization with real membership requirements. I doubt that anyone in the
modern age could hide their membership in the Masons.
bd4u
2003-08-28 20:12:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chocoholic
But Tolkien's daily routine was well known. He was _extremely_ busy. When
did he find tme to attend any Masonic meetings? Could he have done so
without anyone knowing it? You don't just 'become' a Mason. It's an
organization with real membership requirements. I doubt that anyone in the
modern age could hide their membership in the Masons.
Now adays many of them have simply come forward. Yet many others
prefer to hide in the closet with it. Back another 50 or 100 years, being
a Mason almost caused another revolution, or holy war. And it was still
fresh in peoples memories.

Hey, i'm just musing outloud. But thanks for the comments..

;-)

bd4u
bd4u
2003-08-28 22:25:43 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:48:41 -0400, "Chocoholic"
Post by Chocoholic
But Tolkien's daily routine was well known. He was _extremely_ busy. When
did he find tme to attend any Masonic meetings? Could he have done so
without anyone knowing it? You don't just 'become' a Mason. It's an
organization with real membership requirements. I doubt that anyone in the
modern age could hide their membership in the Masons.
Why are some people so desperate to demonstrate that Tolkien may have
been a Mason when all available evidence is against the idea? What
real difference does it make? Was Ayatollah Khomeini a Mason?
Well, since i'm the one that started musing on the subject to begin with.
An all this discussion is because of what i said as an off the wall remark.
I don't see where it makes any difference at all. Cause i'll be the first to admit
it sounds absurd. Yet the plausability of it is endless..

..or so we notice by the numerous comments made about such.
the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
Hey softrat, i can stick my own neck in a noose, i certainly don't
need any help..

;-)

bd4u
the softrat
2003-08-29 05:04:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by bd4u
Well, since i'm the one that started musing on the subject to begin with.
An all this discussion is because of what i said as an off the wall remark.
I don't see where it makes any difference at all. Cause i'll be the first to admit
it sounds absurd. Yet the plausability of it is endless..
..or so we notice by the numerous comments made about such.
"Hear the pulse, and vibration, and the rumblin' force;
someone is out there, beating on a dead horse."
--bob
Jim Deutch
2003-09-02 15:19:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by the softrat
Post by bd4u
Well, since i'm the one that started musing on the subject to begin with.
An all this discussion is because of what i said as an off the wall remark.
I don't see where it makes any difference at all. Cause i'll be the first to admit
it sounds absurd. Yet the plausability of it is endless..
..or so we notice by the numerous comments made about such.
"Hear the pulse, and vibration, and the rumblin' force;
someone is out there, beating on a dead horse."
--bob
Alas, usenet is where one will often see crowds of
people jumping up and down on the greasy smear on
the pavement that used to be a dead horse.
--Nyrath the Nearly Wise

Jim Deutch
--
.sig: see body
Peter Trei
2003-09-03 18:03:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Deutch
Post by the softrat
Post by bd4u
Well, since i'm the one that started musing on the subject to begin with.
An all this discussion is because of what i said as an off the wall remark.
I don't see where it makes any difference at all. Cause i'll be the first to admit
it sounds absurd. Yet the plausability of it is endless..
..or so we notice by the numerous comments made about such.
"Hear the pulse, and vibration, and the rumblin' force;
someone is out there, beating on a dead horse."
--bob
Alas, usenet is where one will often see crowds of
people jumping up and down on the greasy smear on
the pavement that used to be a dead horse.
--Nyrath the Nearly Wise
Jim Deutch
--
This thread has reached the point of severe silliness, but I'd
just like to add my two cents worth. I am a Freemason.

I've never seen the slightest hint the JRRT was a member, and
there is nothing in the trilogy which suggests knowledge of
the Craft. The RC church severely frowns on Masonry, so
thats another blow against the theory.

Peter Trei
Jette Goldie
2003-08-30 17:59:39 UTC
Permalink
real difference does it make? Was Ayatollah Khomeini a Mason?
33-rd degree Scottish Rite.
Well, he certainly believes in a Supreme Being - but was his
dad a Mason?
--
Jette Goldie
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Some people are like Slinkies . . . not really good for anything, but you
still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs.
Flame of the West
2003-09-01 13:10:04 UTC
Permalink
Why are some people so desperate to demonstrate that Tolkien may have
been a Mason when all available evidence is against the idea? What
real difference does it make? Was Ayatollah Khomeini a Mason?
You wouldn't let ME join, would you, you BLACKBALLING
BASTARDS! Well, I wouldn't become a Freemason now if
you got down on your LOUSY STINKING KNEES AND
BEGGED ME!!!


-- FotW

I've got a second-hand apron...
Öjevind Lång
2003-09-01 20:25:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Flame of the West
Why are some people so desperate to demonstrate that Tolkien may have
been a Mason when all available evidence is against the idea? What
real difference does it make? Was Ayatollah Khomeini a Mason?
You wouldn't let ME join, would you, you BLACKBALLING
BASTARDS! Well, I wouldn't become a Freemason now if
you got down on your LOUSY STINKING KNEES AND
BEGGED ME!!!
Bah, you are just jealous of their secret handshakes.

Öjevind
the softrat
2003-09-01 23:44:32 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 09:10:04 -0400, Flame of the West
Post by Flame of the West
Why are some people so desperate to demonstrate that Tolkien may have
been a Mason when all available evidence is against the idea? What
real difference does it make? Was Ayatollah Khomeini a Mason?
You wouldn't let ME join, would you, you BLACKBALLING
BASTARDS! Well, I wouldn't become a Freemason now if
you got down on your LOUSY STINKING KNEES AND
BEGGED ME!!!
-- FotW
I've got a second-hand apron...
You *need* a trowel!


the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
Censorship? We don't have any censorship here. If we did, I
couldn't say ---- or ------ ------!
Flame of the West
2003-09-05 10:28:25 UTC
Permalink
Why are some people so desperate to demonstrate that Tolkien may have
been a Mason when all available evidence is against the idea? What
real difference does it make?
It does make a difference to our understanding of Tolkien
himself. He would have been a very bad Catholic to have
been a Mason and certainly would have known better.

-- FotW

"Making Usenet a better place since 1999"
Öjevind Lång
2003-09-05 22:25:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Flame of the West
Why are some people so desperate to demonstrate that Tolkien may have
been a Mason when all available evidence is against the idea? What
real difference does it make?
It does make a difference to our understanding of Tolkien
himself. He would have been a very bad Catholic to have
been a Mason and certainly would have known better.
Why is the Catholic Church so hostile to the Freemasons?

Öjevind
Hasdrubal Hamilcar
2003-09-06 00:04:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Öjevind Lång
Post by Flame of the West
Why are some people so desperate to demonstrate that Tolkien may have
been a Mason when all available evidence is against the idea? What
real difference does it make?
It does make a difference to our understanding of Tolkien
himself. He would have been a very bad Catholic to have
been a Mason and certainly would have known better.
Why is the Catholic Church so hostile to the Freemasons?
Öjevind
It's a long story, I hear.

Hasan
the softrat
2003-09-06 01:06:06 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 00:25:59 +0200, "Öjevind Lång"
Post by Öjevind Lång
Post by Flame of the West
Why are some people so desperate to demonstrate that Tolkien may have
been a Mason when all available evidence is against the idea? What
real difference does it make?
It does make a difference to our understanding of Tolkien
himself. He would have been a very bad Catholic to have
been a Mason and certainly would have known better.
Why is the Catholic Church so hostile to the Freemasons?
Öjevind
Because they have secret meetings outside the control of the Church
and (allegedly) worship other gods. As far as the 'other gods' charge,
it was substantiated as far as I am concerned by the public Masonic
ceremony I witnessed. (I had a terrible time not laughing out loud at
their pseudo-solemnity. The facts that some of my female friends were
giggling audibly didn't help. To think that grown men go through that
silly performance by choice ....) They were 'worshipping' Isis,
Osiris and Horus.



the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
I don't see what all the fuss is about, if those dolphins were
so smart, they wouldn't hang out with tuna.
Prai Jei
2003-09-06 17:49:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by the softrat
it was substantiated as far as I am concerned by the public Masonic
ceremony I witnessed. (I had a terrible time not laughing out loud at
their pseudo-solemnity. The facts that some of my female friends were
giggling audibly didn't help. To think that grown men go through that
silly performance by choice ....) They were 'worshipping' Isis,
Osiris and Horus.
Sure it wasn't a performance of Mozart's "Magic Flute"? The plot does sound
rather similar : )
the softrat
2003-09-06 22:50:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Prai Jei
Post by the softrat
it was substantiated as far as I am concerned by the public Masonic
ceremony I witnessed. (I had a terrible time not laughing out loud at
their pseudo-solemnity. The facts that some of my female friends were
giggling audibly didn't help. To think that grown men go through that
silly performance by choice ....) They were 'worshipping' Isis,
Osiris and Horus.
Sure it wasn't a performance of Mozart's "Magic Flute"? The plot does sound
rather similar : )
There was no Papageno.

Or for that matter, no Armed Men.


the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
A conscience is what hurts when all your other parts feel so
good. -- Steven Wright
Flame of the West
2003-09-09 00:13:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by the softrat
Post by Öjevind Lång
Why is the Catholic Church so hostile to the Freemasons?
Because they have secret meetings outside the control of the Church
Like the Inklings?
Post by the softrat
and (allegedly) worship other gods. As far as the 'other gods' charge,
it was substantiated as far as I am concerned by the public Masonic
ceremony I witnessed. (I had a terrible time not laughing out loud at
their pseudo-solemnity. The facts that some of my female friends were
giggling audibly didn't help. To think that grown men go through that
silly performance by choice ....) They were 'worshipping' Isis,
Osiris and Horus.
Is Freemasonry now a spectator sport?


-- FotW

Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
the softrat
2003-09-09 04:45:09 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 20:13:19 -0400, Flame of the West
Post by Flame of the West
Post by the softrat
Post by Öjevind Lång
Why is the Catholic Church so hostile to the Freemasons?
Because they have secret meetings outside the control of the Church
and (allegedly) worship other gods. As far as the 'other gods' charge,
it was substantiated as far as I am concerned by the public Masonic
ceremony I witnessed. (I had a terrible time not laughing out loud at
their pseudo-solemnity. The facts that some of my female friends were
giggling audibly didn't help. To think that grown men go through that
silly performance by choice ....) They were 'worshipping' Isis,
Osiris and Horus.
Is Freemasonry now a spectator sport?
Well, it was upon that occasion: the dedication of a civic building in
Costa Mesa, California many years ago now. The local Marine Corp band
was there too.


the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have
never forgotten this.
Öjevind Lång
2003-09-10 19:47:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by the softrat
On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 20:13:19 -0400, Flame of the West
Post by Flame of the West
Post by the softrat
Post by Öjevind Lång
Why is the Catholic Church so hostile to the Freemasons?
Because they have secret meetings outside the control of the Church
[snip]
Post by the softrat
Post by Flame of the West
Is Freemasonry now a spectator sport?
Well, it was upon that occasion: the dedication of a civic building in
Costa Mesa, California many years ago now. The local Marine Corp band
was there too.
I didn't know the Marine Corps was a secret society. "Semper incognito"?

Öjevind
the softrat
2003-09-11 03:47:10 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 21:47:08 +0200, "Öjevind Lång"
Post by Öjevind Lång
Post by the softrat
On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 20:13:19 -0400, Flame of the West
Post by Flame of the West
Post by the softrat
Post by Öjevind Lång
Why is the Catholic Church so hostile to the Freemasons?
Because they have secret meetings outside the control of the Church
[snip]
Post by the softrat
Post by Flame of the West
Is Freemasonry now a spectator sport?
Well, it was upon that occasion: the dedication of a civic building in
Costa Mesa, California many years ago now. The local Marine Corp band
was there too.
I didn't know the Marine Corps was a secret society. "Semper incognito"?
BOOWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

(Tell 'em, Gondy!)


the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name. -- Steven Wright

Morgil
2003-09-09 05:01:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Flame of the West
Is Freemasonry now a spectator sport?
Hoo, there was an 'open doors day' at a Synagogue
in Helsinki couple of days ago, so I guess everything
is possible ;)

Morgil
Jette Goldie
2003-09-10 19:17:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Flame of the West
Post by the softrat
Post by Öjevind Lång
Why is the Catholic Church so hostile to the Freemasons?
Because they have secret meetings outside the control of the Church
Like the Inklings?
Post by the softrat
and (allegedly) worship other gods. As far as the 'other gods' charge,
it was substantiated as far as I am concerned by the public Masonic
ceremony I witnessed. (I had a terrible time not laughing out loud at
their pseudo-solemnity. The facts that some of my female friends were
giggling audibly didn't help. To think that grown men go through that
silly performance by choice ....) They were 'worshipping' Isis,
Osiris and Horus.
Is Freemasonry now a spectator sport?
Well, to be honest, it isn't exactly a *secret* society - and hasn't
been for a long time.
--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
***@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
the softrat
2003-09-11 03:46:20 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:17:37 GMT, in alt.fan.tolkien "Jette Goldie"
Post by Jette Goldie
Post by Flame of the West
Is Freemasonry now a spectator sport?
Well, to be honest, it isn't exactly a *secret* society - and hasn't
been for a long time.
But the *Rotarians*!!!


the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name. -- Steven Wright
Flame of the West
2003-09-06 03:50:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Öjevind Lång
Why is the Catholic Church so hostile to the Freemasons?
The Freemasons have a vaguely Deistic belief system
which is incompatible with Christianity, let alone Catholicism.
I doubt most members believe or even know the details,
but they do have to swear oaths that contradict Christian
belief. So basically, Catholics are not allowed to join the
Masons for the same reason they are not allowed to join
a Protestant community: it represents a different religion.
Many Protestant churches are hostile to Masonry too, for
the very same reason.

-- FotW

Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
The Arcane Chas
2003-09-09 01:38:13 UTC
Permalink
In article <bjj4mr$obq$***@bob.news.rcn.net>, but only after serious
contemplation, Flame of the West <***@solinas.nospam.org> put finger to
keyboard and produced the following;
Post by Flame of the West
The Freemasons have a vaguely Deistic belief system
which is incompatible with Christianity, let alone Catholicism.
That is not true.
--
Cheers,

Chas.

"Reality leaves a lot to the imagination".
Flame of the West
2003-09-09 03:54:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Arcane Chas
Post by Flame of the West
The Freemasons have a vaguely Deistic belief system
which is incompatible with Christianity, let alone Catholicism.
That is not true.
Is too.

-- FotW

Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
The Arcane Chas
2003-09-09 08:33:09 UTC
Permalink
In article <bjjivm$a2o$***@bob.news.rcn.net>, but only after serious
contemplation, Flame of the West <***@solinas.nospam.org> put finger to
keyboard and produced the following;
Post by Flame of the West
Post by The Arcane Chas
Post by Flame of the West
The Freemasons have a vaguely Deistic belief system
which is incompatible with Christianity, let alone Catholicism.
That is not true.
Is too.
LOL

Nevertheless....
--
Cheers,

Chas.

"Reality leaves a lot to the imagination".
the softrat
2003-09-09 04:41:51 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 02:38:13 +0100, The Arcane Chas
Post by The Arcane Chas
keyboard and produced the following;
Post by Flame of the West
The Freemasons have a vaguely Deistic belief system
which is incompatible with Christianity, let alone Catholicism.
That is not true.
Most Masons, at least most American ones, are actually so vague about
their Masonic and Christian beliefs that they are unaware of any
conflicts. To them, Masonry is a social club.


the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have
never forgotten this.
The Arcane Chas
2003-09-09 08:35:20 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@4ax.com>, but only after
serious contemplation, the softrat <***@pobox.com> put finger to
keyboard and produced the following;
Post by the softrat
On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 02:38:13 +0100, The Arcane Chas
Post by The Arcane Chas
keyboard and produced the following;
Post by Flame of the West
The Freemasons have a vaguely Deistic belief system
which is incompatible with Christianity, let alone Catholicism.
That is not true.
Most Masons, at least most American ones, are actually so vague about
their Masonic and Christian beliefs that they are unaware of any
conflicts.
I can't speak for most American Masons.
Post by the softrat
To them, Masonry is a social club.
The (few) that I have met seem to take Masonry a lot more seriously than
that.
--
Cheers,

Chas.

"Reality leaves a lot to the imagination".
the softrat
2003-09-06 00:57:12 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 06:28:25 -0400, Flame of the West
Post by Flame of the West
Why are some people so desperate to demonstrate that Tolkien may have
been a Mason when all available evidence is against the idea? What
real difference does it make?
It does make a difference to our understanding of Tolkien
himself. He would have been a very bad Catholic to have
been a Mason and certainly would have known better.
Bad Catholic! Bad! Bad! SLAP!


the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me
with questions?
kmd
2003-08-28 18:13:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by bd4u
Thomas Jefferson believed in GOD, and the botherhood
of man.
That's the best typo I've seen all day.
--
Kristen
Pradera
2003-08-28 19:43:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by kmd
Post by bd4u
Thomas Jefferson believed in GOD, and the botherhood
of man.
That's the best typo I've seen all day.
It's a good day for tyopes, between that and boob-trap :)
--
Pradera
---
'Ronald Reagan once said that a great leader is simply an
average man who surrounds himself with the best.
That's why I never vote Republican'
Scott Summers, 'Cyclops'

http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/
http://www.tolkien-gen.prv.pl/
Öjevind Lång
2003-08-27 23:03:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Dufour
By Greg Wright from http://www.hollywoodjesus.com
Peter Jackson's Orcs
Tolkien, Racism and Classism
[snip]
Post by Steve Dufour
The Orcs of Moria
Peter Jackson really does do a fine job of bringing the Orcs to the
screen. Unlike Rankin/Bass (who, in an apparent homage to the
classical origins of goblins, put wings on Tolkien's Orcs)
Or else because they had seen "The Wizard of Oz" too many times.

Öjevind
Sam's the Man
2003-08-28 22:33:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Dufour
By Greg Wright from http://www.hollywoodjesus.com
Peter Jackson's Orcs
Quite thought provoking. I would have said that Jacksons movie
adaptation were less focussed on Christian themes than Tolkiens
original, merely based on the opening sequence of FotR (where Isildur
defeats too powerful evil merely by chance). Also, interesting to see
Wrights assertion that Christians are not meant to be motivated by
fear. An oft forgotten biblical theme - good to see it getting some
air time.
Jerome Morrow
2003-09-02 02:49:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam's the Man
Quite thought provoking. I would have said that Jacksons movie
adaptation were less focussed on Christian themes than Tolkiens
original, merely based on the opening sequence of FotR (where Isildur
defeats too powerful evil merely by chance). Also, interesting to see.....
By chance? You might as well say that Gollum's fall into Mount Doom was "by
chance" too.

As for the view on Orcs - their origins and ability for redemption, can we
simply define their condition as similar to demons or werewolves?

Orcs are created by a evil supernatural higher being and are a perversion of
the the creative process used to make Elves and humans.
phobos
2003-08-31 22:08:23 UTC
Permalink
Nice review. I wonder if they "fade" in the manner
of Tolkien's invented subcreation theology. (I never
really understood why the hell he created a race that
is incapable of surviving in its planet of birth.
What, are they too pure for the ME or something?
Seems like a justification for the wrong kind of
attitude towards Christian virtue to me. I.e. viewing
the Kingdom of Heaven as an unattainable antediluvian
state, and viewing the New Testament virtues not as
prescriptions but as preparation for the apocalypse,
when God will come down and make everything right
without any need on the part of "Elves" or virtuous
humans to stick around and do the right thing.)
I always viewed this as being connected to the idea of the two worlds
- the gross material world and the spirit realm. We see that the
Nazgul exist mainly in the spirit realm, and are all but invisible to
most mortals - but they become visible, horrifically so, to the wearer
of the Ring. We also see Glorfindel, Noldo and High Elf of the West, a
great and fair Elf-lord when seen in the material world, but a
ferocious blaze of glory on the spirit plane. The Elves exist in both
worlds and are mighty in each one.

So, philosophically, we might posit that the original system had the
two worlds interwoven, united - Doriath under the Stars was as much
the home of Elves as was Valinor in the days of the Trees. But at the
fall of Numenor the rules were changed. Eru ripped Valinor and the
true West out of the material world, such that it is no longer
possible for mortal mariners to find it; he replaced the Undying Lands
with the New World, and remodelled the flat Arda as the spheroid
Earth. Where, then, are Valinor and Eressea, so that the power and
craft of the Dunadan empire in Middle-earth under the heirs of Isildur
could not find it, yet that any Elvish ship sailing out will surely
find the havens at Avallone? I would say that it is in the spirit
world.

And now we see the problem. The Elves are supposed to be in Aman -
they were asked to return after the War of Wrath - but they linger in
Middle-earth. The magic is fading from Middle-earth as the two worlds
drift apart, as the physics of our Universe gradually supplants that
of old, as Arion is replaced by a thermonuclear furnace, as Earendil
the Mariner is made redundant by a clouded, stifling, toxic
hell-planet; this is no longer a place for such creatures as Elves.
Through use of the Rings the old power is preserved in Rivendell and
Lothlorien, but elsewhere the power of the Elves fades as the world
becomes the world of Men, material, mechanical.

Where is the place for an Elf in such a world? Indeed they will fade;
they will no longer be the glorious creatures of the Elder Days, but
will decline. Their place now is the spirit world and the true West,
and as the separation grows greater their projection into our world
would become less. They would become the creatures of lighthearted
mischief we know from European mythology... with only echoes of their
old nobility in Oberon and Titania and their strange court. In time,
they would fade as the Ringwraiths faded - a tragic fate for such a
people.
Jim Deutch
2003-09-10 15:50:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by phobos
I always viewed this as being connected to the idea of the two worlds
- the gross material world and the spirit realm. We see that the
Nazgul exist mainly in the spirit realm, and are all but invisible to
most mortals - but they become visible, horrifically so, to the wearer
of the Ring. We also see Glorfindel, Noldo and High Elf of the West, a
great and fair Elf-lord when seen in the material world, but a
ferocious blaze of glory on the spirit plane. The Elves exist in both
worlds and are mighty in each one.
So, philosophically, we might posit that the original system had the
two worlds interwoven, united - Doriath under the Stars was as much
the home of Elves as was Valinor in the days of the Trees. But at the
fall of Numenor the rules were changed. Eru ripped Valinor and the
true West out of the material world, such that it is no longer
possible for mortal mariners to find it; he replaced the Undying Lands
with the New World, and remodelled the flat Arda as the spheroid
Earth. Where, then, are Valinor and Eressea, so that the power and
craft of the Dunadan empire in Middle-earth under the heirs of Isildur
could not find it, yet that any Elvish ship sailing out will surely
find the havens at Avallone? I would say that it is in the spirit
world.
And now we see the problem. The Elves are supposed to be in Aman -
they were asked to return after the War of Wrath - but they linger in
Middle-earth. The magic is fading from Middle-earth as the two worlds
drift apart, as the physics of our Universe gradually supplants that
of old, as Arion is replaced by a thermonuclear furnace, as Earendil
the Mariner is made redundant by a clouded, stifling, toxic
hell-planet; this is no longer a place for such creatures as Elves.
Through use of the Rings the old power is preserved in Rivendell and
Lothlorien, but elsewhere the power of the Elves fades as the world
becomes the world of Men, material, mechanical.
Where is the place for an Elf in such a world? Indeed they will fade;
they will no longer be the glorious creatures of the Elder Days, but
will decline. Their place now is the spirit world and the true West,
and as the separation grows greater their projection into our world
would become less. They would become the creatures of lighthearted
mischief we know from European mythology... with only echoes of their
old nobility in Oberon and Titania and their strange court. In time,
they would fade as the Ringwraiths faded - a tragic fate for such a
people.
Very, very nice: worth quoting in full! Were you thinking as you
wrote it of the song of the Rohirrim that (IIRC) Aragorn sings for
Gimli and Legolas? "Where is the horse and the rider..." Same feeling
to it, IMHO.

Jim Deutch
--
Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else
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